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[Music]

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this is somewhere in the skies with

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Brian Sprague

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welcome to episode 4 of somewhere in the

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skies this is going to be an interesting

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one unlike our previous three episodes

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we're going to tackle an aspect of UFOs

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that often gets overlooked and that's

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the pair of psychological yep we are

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going there so buckle up but first I

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want to start with the following

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listener email I recently received it

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comes to us from Judy Thompson out of

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Alberta Canada and this event occurred

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to her when she was 14 years old in 1980

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off of man Lake near the town of Asha

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Judy writes quote I was driving home

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from the small town near acreage home

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when late summer afternoon I had my

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learner's license and my mom was sitting

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in the front passenger seat my

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grandmother and younger brother were in

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the back I had to slow down coming into

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our subdivision as the road had a sharp

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bend close to the lake edge here is when

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I noticed something a black triangle

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object some distance away high over the

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edge of the lake I stopped and rolled

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down the window to hear if it may then

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sound I thought maybe it could be a

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helicopter with something hanging under

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it but I cannot hear anything and it

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continued to sit motionless in the sky

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I remember blurting out something like

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what the heck is that a UFO I looked at

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it for a short time and decided to

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continue driving I wanted to look more

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but I was worried about cars coming up

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behind me I was also worried about

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frightening my mom and grandmother I

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knew they would not be open to such

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things as UFOs however I cannot stop

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thinking about that strange object I

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continued to drive until I reached the

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approach to our home I don't know why I

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stopped if the approaching looked over

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my left shoulder and up into the sky but

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I did and there it was it was directly

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over the road and now was just a little

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higher than the treetops I quickly put

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the car in park and shut off the engine

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I felt a sense of excitement to get

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another chance to have a look at this

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day I got out of the car leaving the

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door open and gazed up the craft

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hovering above me no one else got out of

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the car and

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one said a word while I was looking at

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it the object indeed was not black but a

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dull charcoal gray color it made no

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sound and had no visible lights it was

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about 30 to 40 feet across the bottom of

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it had sections with some type of

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pattern maybe symbols

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however I cannot remember the details

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very well I wanted to see if it had any

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windows or identifiable markers so I

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walked around to the front of the car to

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the other side to get a better look

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besides front and top were solid with no

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windows markers or scenes of any kind as

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I was standing and gazing up at the

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craft I felt a sense of awe and wonder

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and I became aware of my thoughts being

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read this may sound really weird and I

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probably would leave this part out if it

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were not for the fact that I have come

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across other people's accounts of having

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similar experiences I had a real feeling

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that this was an amazing event and that

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this craft was not from our world

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I wanted them whoever they were to know

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that I was greatly honored to have had

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the chance of a lifetime to experience

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something so amazing I started to think

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about what the occupants may look like

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for the first time and I felt the sense

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of fear creeping in I don't know if that

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was the reason but the craft started to

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move gracefully gliding like it was on

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ice it moved a little forward then made

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a 90-degree turn facing east towards Man

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Lake it started moving slowly in this

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direction but then suddenly accelerated

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and an unreal speed and was gone in a

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split second no sound no smoke no lights

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it was just gone the leaves of the tall

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poplar trees that surrounded the area or

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completely undisturbed I never spoke to

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anyone about this event not even my

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family it was not until 2009 while

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recovering from surgery that I really

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began some serious research on this

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topic and have been hooked ever since I

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do feel that it is important to share my

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story end quote Wow yes Judy it is

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important for you to share your stone

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and I can't thank you enough for sending

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that to me it reminds me so much my own

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UFO sighting when I was 12 years old

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but what intrigues me most is the

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feeling that she felt her thoughts were

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somehow being read somehow being

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controlled by whatever she was seeing

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the psychic aspect has been like Judy

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mentioned reported by many individuals

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in fact I've interviewed dozens of

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people who've claimed the same thing

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they feel some sort of mental connection

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to whatever they're seeing and

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experiencing and this goes even deeper

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when people report elements of high

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strangeness parapsychological events and

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even paranormal incidents occurring

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during a UFO sighting or even after and

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that's exactly what I spoke to today's

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guests about Susan Demeter st. Claire is

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a professional research assistant author

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editor and SCI experiment her research

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interests include individual and

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institutional responses to anomalies and

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exceptional human experiences and how

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they interact and enact change within

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groups and large institutions she has

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established both para researchers of

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Ontario and paranormal studies in

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inquiry Canada as online educational

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resources for those wishing to explore

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the subject of anomalous events she has

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conducted field research an unusual

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light phenomena and lectured on this

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subject at the Ontario Institute for

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studies and education at the University

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of Toronto

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she is currently collaborating with Eric

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Cole a PhD of the Canadian Forces

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College on new approaches to UFO studies

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through the lens of scientific

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parapsychology today I speak to Susan

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about various cases she is personally

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researched through this lens of

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parapsychology and just a warning we do

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get a special guest by her dog max in

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this interview so I was deeply honoured

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by that so without further ado let's get

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to the interview

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I'm Susan Demeter st. Clare okay let's

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dive hey guys I am here today with Susan

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Demeter st. Claire she is a

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UFO researcher amongst many other things

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which we will talk about tonight thanks

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so much for joining us today season well

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thank you for having me on the show I'm

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really excited to finally be talking to

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you yes and you know we've spoken off

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air a few times now and I was really

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drawn to your work through a mutual

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project we're working on and that's

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Robbie Grahams UFOs reframing the debate

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a new book that's out this May 2017 and

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we all were given an advanced copy and I

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was immediately attracted to your essay

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it was something that I've been diving

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into lately with the whole UFO topic and

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that is connecting it both to the

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paranormal and to the psychological the

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psycho social and everything in between

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so yeah we're definitely going to dive

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into some some of that tonight but first

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the first question I always have Susan

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for anyone who's into these topics is

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how did you get involved what got you

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interested in specifically the UFO issue

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well I would have to say that it was the

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phenomena itself that sort of initiated

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me into into the UFO topic when I was

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small I when I was a child I had had

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some strange experiences but as we all

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do we kind of you know we put that off

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to childhood and I didn't really connect

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them to UFOs I connected the more to

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ghosts but when I was 23 I had a close

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encounter with a UFO with my

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brother-in-law and being a young adult

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and having another witness there that

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really is what I'd like to call it an

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initiation because that that was the

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moment that really propelled me into

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this sort of study and research and I've

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kind of been on it off and on ever since

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but I yeah but but I would say it was

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being a personal experience that prior

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to that I mean I had a basic interest

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like anyone else maybe through pop

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culture I had seen Close Encounters of a

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Third Kind it's a great film and we will

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talk about that later

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yes Ichi and all these fun things so I

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but I wasn't really into UFOs at that

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point like I didn't really know too much

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about the subject it this initial

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experience where did that happen if you

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don't mind me asking that happened in

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Toronto at the time I was living on a

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tenth floor condominium and it was

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rather late at night night I was with my

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my husband at the time and my

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brother-in-law we were watching an

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Elvira mistress of the dark film mmm

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I'll never I'll never forget that

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because this experience was so burned

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into my mind and and I was getting late

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and at the time I had like sliding glass

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doors onto the tenth floor patio and I

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had two very small children with me at

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the time and I was in the habit of of

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locking those doors before I went to bed

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every night and so as the movie was

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ending Elvira I got up it was about 1:00

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a.m. and I was a weeknight - it was like

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a Monday night and I walked over to the

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sliding glass doors and I noticed this

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large red sort of light hovering out

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over by the nuclear plant and the

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Pickering Nuclear Generating Station on

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the north shore of Lake Ontario which I

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had this clear view of ah and I'd it

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just struck me and I thought at first

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you know is this a reflection from the

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television off the glass because it was

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just such an odd thing and I realized no

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there was something out there so I I

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went out onto the onto the patio out of

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the balcony and I was staring at it and

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I realized that there's something really

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strange about this I I just couldn't I

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could not comprehend what I was looking

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at it was so weird and I called up to my

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brother-in-law and fortunately at this

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point my my event husband was

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fast asleep on the couch he had he'd

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fallen asleep during the film so he

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briefly recalls hearing me yell out but

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didn't come out and he he to this day

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regrets that he never did but my

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brother-in-law came out and we were

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looking at it and I was saying what is

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this would you know and just counting

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things in my head like this is not a

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plane this doesn't have flashing lights

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I'm not hearing sounds like what what is

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this giant glowing red sort of octagon a

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shape thing and my brother-in-law said

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to me he was the first one who said I

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think that's a UFO and and it just like

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it kind of we both clicked and we were

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like kind of freaking out and holding

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each other and there's a goose goose

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question and and all that and I turned

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around to him and for whatever reason

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and I don't really 100% know why to this

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day I said they know we can see them and

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00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:34,410
at that point it's sort of almost

274
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:37,750
imploded in on itself into a smaller red

275
00:12:44,940 --> 00:12:41,530
ball of light that was pulsating and it

276
00:12:48,510 --> 00:12:44,950
shot straight up into the sky and we

277
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:48,520
were floored and I didn't sleep that

278
00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:52,090
night we sat we sat up and we just kept

279
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:55,150
talking it out he's like what was this I

280
00:12:59,550 --> 00:12:57,730
remember looking at but at the street

281
00:13:00,300 --> 00:12:59,560
there was a single car driving Bucks it

282
00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:00,310
was very late at night

283
00:13:05,820 --> 00:13:03,190
and I think I was thinking maybe this

284
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:05,830
guy thought - I was looking in the

285
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:10,930
papers I didn't know who to call but I

286
00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:14,770
called my dad and my dad was a scientist

287
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:19,180
and he was in a pilot and I called him

288
00:13:23,850 --> 00:13:21,010
up and I told him what happened and I

289
00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:23,860
said I saw this UFO and thankfully I had

290
00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:25,960
him in my life because he said to me if

291
00:13:31,410 --> 00:13:28,420
you say you saw UFO then that's what you

292
00:13:33,570 --> 00:13:31,420
saw so there was no ridicule there and

293
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:33,580
then he told me about his own UFO

294
00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:35,890
experience from the 1950s which I hadn't

295
00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:39,160
known up until that point oh wow yeah

296
00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:42,090
you're essentially your initial

297
00:13:46,319 --> 00:13:44,650
experience opened up the floodgates as

298
00:13:49,979 --> 00:13:46,329
it were to uh

299
00:13:52,439 --> 00:13:49,989
experiences that's amazing yes yes and

300
00:13:56,970 --> 00:13:52,449
it's it it was it wasn't really amazing

301
00:13:58,679 --> 00:13:56,980
and but I didn't know I wanted to find

302
00:14:00,269 --> 00:13:58,689
out more information I didn't know who

303
00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:00,279
to contact and I really didn't know

304
00:14:04,439 --> 00:14:02,860
anything about the topic per se so I

305
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:04,449
went to the library

306
00:14:10,769 --> 00:14:08,649
this is pre-internet days and and and I

307
00:14:14,699 --> 00:14:10,779
took up some books and they were from

308
00:14:17,009 --> 00:14:14,709
dr. Hynek and and I thought okay here's

309
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:17,019
a scientist and you know he sounds

310
00:14:21,509 --> 00:14:18,730
reasonable there was a little contact

311
00:14:24,689 --> 00:14:21,519
information at the back so I wrote a

312
00:14:26,579 --> 00:14:24,699
letter to dr. Hynek at this time I I had

313
00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:26,589
no idea he had already passed away

314
00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:31,809
and unfortunately the letter was

315
00:14:37,410 --> 00:14:35,230
returned to me you know it came back

316
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:37,420
undeliverable so the address had been

317
00:14:42,660 --> 00:14:39,910
incorrect at that plant - q fo mhm and

318
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:42,670
so I kept the letter and then I kind of

319
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:44,170
at the time I had small children so I

320
00:14:48,809 --> 00:14:46,480
just kind of put it away and I just kept

321
00:14:50,669 --> 00:14:48,819
it so that I had the initial all that

322
00:14:52,889 --> 00:14:50,679
stuff cuz I would I wrote in all the

323
00:14:55,729 --> 00:14:52,899
details and it wasn't until several

324
00:14:59,429 --> 00:14:55,739
years later that I got involved with

325
00:15:02,100 --> 00:14:59,439
MUFON not as an investigator with them

326
00:15:04,439 --> 00:15:02,110
but just involved like with speaking

327
00:15:07,739 --> 00:15:04,449
with investigators from MUFON and they

328
00:15:09,749 --> 00:15:07,749
actually did an investigation and found

329
00:15:11,879 --> 00:15:09,759
out that there were many many other

330
00:15:14,519 --> 00:15:11,889
sightings involving the Pickering

331
00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:14,529
nuclear station quiet

332
00:15:18,869 --> 00:15:16,809
yeah and this with a few years later

333
00:15:20,789 --> 00:15:18,879
this was at the very beginning Susan

334
00:15:24,419 --> 00:15:20,799
those in the internet bulletin board

335
00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:24,429
days so it was all UFOs and sci-fi and

336
00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:26,049
stephanie old days of the internet so

337
00:15:32,039 --> 00:15:28,569
yeah I remember that yeah so was it hard

338
00:15:34,289 --> 00:15:32,049
to find someone to talk to and so they

339
00:15:37,499 --> 00:15:34,299
say did the investigation and that kind

340
00:15:40,409 --> 00:15:37,509
of whet my appetite more or less to

341
00:15:43,369 --> 00:15:40,419
start looking into things and might a

342
00:15:45,689 --> 00:15:43,379
girlfriend of mine was at the time

343
00:15:47,729 --> 00:15:45,699
really interested in these spook lights

344
00:15:49,859 --> 00:15:47,739
that were in Ontario near the

345
00:15:52,889 --> 00:15:49,869
Peterborough area of Ontario and we just

346
00:15:54,779 --> 00:15:52,899
started investigating them and I was

347
00:15:58,199 --> 00:15:54,789
talking to different peoples Ted

348
00:16:00,090 --> 00:15:58,209
Phillips the famous you know right hand

349
00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:00,100
there of dr. Hynek he was very

350
00:16:05,370 --> 00:16:01,750
helpful to me and this is back in the

351
00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:05,380
90s and it just sort of it started

352
00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:08,470
snowballing from there until I've at

353
00:16:14,579 --> 00:16:12,310
this point now so quite a large portion

354
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:14,589
of my life now has been dedicated to

355
00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:16,959
UFOs but that was the first experience

356
00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:19,870
and that was really what I would say my

357
00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:23,740
initiation into the topic of UFOs

358
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:27,430
Wow it's I got chills a little bit only

359
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:30,250
because a the nuclear facility sightings

360
00:16:36,030 --> 00:16:33,370
always give me chills yeah but be how

361
00:16:38,249 --> 00:16:36,040
much your initial experience sort of

362
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:38,259
mirrors my path as well

363
00:16:43,319 --> 00:16:40,720
Ansari I love to hear more yeah

364
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:43,329
definitely I have triangular sighting at

365
00:16:52,439 --> 00:16:47,850
the age of 12 this was also off of

366
00:16:54,449 --> 00:16:52,449
basically Lake Ontario in upstate New

367
00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:54,459
York this is in the st. Lawrence River

368
00:16:59,790 --> 00:16:57,190
area of the Thousand Islands

369
00:17:04,860 --> 00:16:59,800
I saw a triangular formation this is

370
00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:04,870
back in 1995 and very similar you know I

371
00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:07,630
I didn't see any sort of blinking lights

372
00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:11,020
it was very stationary over my head

373
00:17:16,890 --> 00:17:13,390
it was coasting over the water towards

374
00:17:19,470 --> 00:17:16,900
your neck of the woods heading north to

375
00:17:21,929 --> 00:17:19,480
Canada I screamed for my father to come

376
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:21,939
out he sees the tail end of it says it's

377
00:17:25,409 --> 00:17:23,289
a plane

378
00:17:27,899 --> 00:17:25,419
but I knew differently you know at that

379
00:17:31,230 --> 00:17:27,909
point I it was directly over my head

380
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:31,240
when I first saw it making no noise and

381
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:34,690
after that season I did the same thing I

382
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:36,490
went to the library I started taking out

383
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:39,730
books because what else do you do at you

384
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:42,760
know where exactly I was 12 years old I

385
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:45,490
didn't know about MUFON cue foes any of

386
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:48,370
this stuff I wanted to report it to the

387
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:50,799
police but my dad said no he didn't want

388
00:17:56,610 --> 00:17:53,320
you didn't want to get involved I can't

389
00:17:59,549 --> 00:17:56,620
blame him but yeah it seems like we've

390
00:18:02,760 --> 00:17:59,559
had very similar paths from that initial

391
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:02,770
experience into what we do today and

392
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:04,510
that's researching and investigating

393
00:18:10,169 --> 00:18:07,720
these things now I know you said you

394
00:18:13,289 --> 00:18:10,179
were not a official MUFON investigator

395
00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:13,299
but you did personally research a very

396
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:15,700
compelling case out of the Cape Croker

397
00:18:20,850 --> 00:18:19,210
Ontario and I know the witnesses would

398
00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:20,860
like to remain confidential but could

399
00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:23,590
you would you mind giving us a little

400
00:18:29,789 --> 00:18:26,769
taste of what this case was that you

401
00:18:32,159 --> 00:18:29,799
investigated having to do with in the

402
00:18:35,039 --> 00:18:32,169
idea of high strangeness and we'll talk

403
00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:35,049
more about that after but I would love

404
00:18:40,049 --> 00:18:36,700
to hear more about this case if you

405
00:18:42,659 --> 00:18:40,059
wouldn't mind sharing oh absolutely but

406
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:42,669
just just very quickly before we get

407
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:45,190
into that I just got it because of your

408
00:18:48,629 --> 00:18:46,450
own experience I'm going to relate

409
00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:48,639
something to you so get get prepared to

410
00:18:56,639 --> 00:18:52,809
be chilled again okay so I had started

411
00:18:58,799 --> 00:18:56,649
investigating and and and not really I

412
00:19:01,979 --> 00:18:58,809
affiliated with any group I more or less

413
00:19:04,859 --> 00:19:01,989
started my own little kind of group of

414
00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:04,869
people that were loosely doing their own

415
00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:06,940
thing and we were researching together

416
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:08,830
these spook lights but over time I

417
00:19:14,909 --> 00:19:12,970
started getting more involved and and to

418
00:19:17,129 --> 00:19:14,919
be honest disheartened with some of what

419
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:17,139
was going on in your greater ufology all

420
00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:19,960
the egos and everybody knows is expert

421
00:19:26,249 --> 00:19:24,070
so I became quite disheartened and I

422
00:19:30,269 --> 00:19:26,259
ended up joining a skeptical

423
00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:30,279
organization which is skeptics Canada I

424
00:19:37,739 --> 00:19:32,230
was trying to being driven to that point

425
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:37,749
until a fateful day in 2001 where I was

426
00:19:42,509 --> 00:19:39,369
not investigating anything I was out

427
00:19:43,979 --> 00:19:42,519
with a friend I didn't have a camera and

428
00:19:46,830 --> 00:19:43,989
I didn't even have a cell phone at that

429
00:19:50,729 --> 00:19:46,840
point since 2001 and we were walking

430
00:19:55,169 --> 00:19:50,739
along this pathway in Ajax Ontario along

431
00:19:56,659 --> 00:19:55,179
the lake and I don't know if you can

432
00:20:00,269 --> 00:19:56,669
gather what's coming next

433
00:20:04,379 --> 00:20:00,279
there was a UFO experience and it

434
00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:04,389
involved a diamond-shaped craft at very

435
00:20:11,609 --> 00:20:09,940
close range and seeing that it just

436
00:20:13,859 --> 00:20:11,619
totally radically changed my mind and

437
00:20:16,169 --> 00:20:13,869
again I couldn't be skipper anymore mmm

438
00:20:18,450 --> 00:20:16,179
I even though these people were great

439
00:20:21,269 --> 00:20:18,460
and I learned a lot from them and in

440
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:21,279
other ways you know how to find frauds

441
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:23,049
and sleight of hand and this kind of

442
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:26,559
thing I just I could not be a skeptic

443
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:27,130
anymore

444
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:29,170
or so again another initiation another

445
00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:30,670
guide path but when you were talking

446
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:34,180
about your triangle yes that that just

447
00:20:40,590 --> 00:20:37,210
brought that right back to me and this

448
00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:40,600
was it looked like a spaceship it was

449
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:43,030
very close range

450
00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:45,970
I was quite as a much older at that

451
00:20:50,820 --> 00:20:49,720
point closer to my earlier 30s and it

452
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:50,830
was just it blew me away

453
00:20:55,230 --> 00:20:52,960
and that at that point I couldn't go

454
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:55,240
that sceptical path I knew that there is

455
00:21:02,400 --> 00:20:58,090
something out there that we just don't

456
00:21:05,190 --> 00:21:02,410
understand it's not of our known reality

457
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:05,200
right Wow yeah I mean and no one can

458
00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:06,970
blame you for taking the skeptical route

459
00:21:12,150 --> 00:21:09,340
I think first of all skepticism is

460
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:12,160
essential in what we do we have to

461
00:21:16,890 --> 00:21:13,750
remain grounded we have to rule out

462
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:16,900
every possibility and the you know the

463
00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:19,240
job of a UFO researcher is to try to

464
00:21:23,940 --> 00:21:22,030
find a prosaic answer that's what we

465
00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:23,950
want when there's nothing left then

466
00:21:26,970 --> 00:21:26,350
that's when we truly have an unknown so

467
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:26,980
Wow

468
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:28,810
you went for a believer - skeptic to

469
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:32,290
believer again I love it exactly so so

470
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:34,930
now back to Cape Croker which is um it

471
00:21:42,590 --> 00:21:37,600
is a native an Aboriginal Reservation

472
00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:42,600
it's about two hours north of Toronto

473
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:45,430
that's in an area and near Wiarton I

474
00:21:48,750 --> 00:21:46,630
don't know if you're familiar with our

475
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:48,760
groundhog Wiarton Willie it's up near

476
00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:51,970
that area of the province up in near

477
00:22:00,510 --> 00:21:55,300
Lake Huron and they had contacted me

478
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:00,520
they had had family visiting and some of

479
00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:03,760
the family and they were outside they

480
00:22:09,030 --> 00:22:05,980
were having this bonfire this was during

481
00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:09,040
a celebration a festival powwow over a

482
00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:11,830
weekend for that and so they're some of

483
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:14,980
the family members were out and one of

484
00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:16,930
them saw this very strange light

485
00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:21,340
descending from the sky and then the

486
00:22:27,090 --> 00:22:23,080
other family members that were sitting

487
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:27,100
around the bonfire also were drawn up to

488
00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:29,530
look and what I mean by drawn up is they

489
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:33,390
all heard a voice in their head

490
00:22:38,850 --> 00:22:36,490
simultaneously calling out to them to

491
00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:38,860
look to look at these lights and the

492
00:22:44,550 --> 00:22:41,080
lights descended down

493
00:22:48,780 --> 00:22:44,560
and they just they had this just

494
00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:48,790
miraculous sort of UFO experience but it

495
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:50,350
was almost as if they had had a

496
00:22:56,610 --> 00:22:53,010
telepathy between themselves

497
00:22:59,550 --> 00:22:56,620
simultaneously with whatever the light

498
00:23:01,710 --> 00:22:59,560
was that they were experiencing that

499
00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:01,720
came down and sort of joins them in

500
00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:04,390
their in their celebratory sort of

501
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:09,430
bonfire so to me these are the types of

502
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:12,450
cases that I am truly interested in and

503
00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:15,070
when I was able to talk to the witnesses

504
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:16,600
I was able to find out some more

505
00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:20,080
personal details about them that was

506
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:24,130
suggested to me that this UFO was

507
00:23:29,910 --> 00:23:27,610
probably very symbolic and unique to

508
00:23:32,790 --> 00:23:29,920
their family and reservation

509
00:23:34,620 --> 00:23:32,800
circumstances at the time and I wish I

510
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,630
could give you more details on that but

511
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:37,440
in this case I have given them

512
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:39,490
confidentiality so I can't really delve

513
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:42,130
too much into their personal details

514
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:47,770
yeah but but it's almost is this and

515
00:23:56,670 --> 00:23:53,650
this is very Jungian that the UFO was

516
00:24:00,900 --> 00:23:56,680
symbolic to their circumstances it had a

517
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:00,910
very synchronistic sort of meaning to

518
00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:04,330
them which I found very interesting and

519
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:06,790
when I'm I'm sorry to drink when you say

520
00:24:13,020 --> 00:24:09,370
jung-in we're referring to Carl Jung

521
00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:13,030
correct the yes yes and other of that

522
00:24:19,050 --> 00:24:15,340
yes the father depth psychology yeah

523
00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:19,060
okay and in so what you're sort of

524
00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:21,790
saying is that whatever they were seeing

525
00:24:31,590 --> 00:24:26,980
uh was a parapsychological in a sense

526
00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:31,600
but also related to their almost their

527
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:34,150
social anxiety at the time of what they

528
00:24:39,150 --> 00:24:36,790
were dealing with it was related to

529
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:39,160
their personal circumstances I believe

530
00:24:44,850 --> 00:24:41,890
so yes there was a symbolism there much

531
00:24:48,510 --> 00:24:44,860
like I didn't realize it at the time but

532
00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:48,520
that first UFO that I saw was a girl

533
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:51,640
glowing red pulsating shaped like a stop

534
00:24:56,820 --> 00:24:54,730
sign it was octagon but it didn't really

535
00:24:58,409 --> 00:24:56,830
click into my head at the time so what I

536
00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:58,419
was seeing was almost like this giant

537
00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:01,360
stop sign in the sky and then later on

538
00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:03,309
when I started thinking along these

539
00:25:07,919 --> 00:25:05,230
terms I was able to kind of relate but

540
00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:07,929
there was some symbolism there perhaps

541
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:11,020
for me personally nursing so I you know

542
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:13,660
almost what we're perceiving the shape

543
00:25:19,289 --> 00:25:16,210
of it the size of it the luminosity of

544
00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:19,299
it could be directly correlated to our

545
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:23,080
own perception of what we either want it

546
00:25:26,340 --> 00:25:24,730
to be or something we might be dealing

547
00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:26,350
with in our own lives

548
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:29,830
oh god this is yeah we will guys like

549
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:34,049
this more for sure yeah yeah absolutely

550
00:25:41,580 --> 00:25:37,720
so so that that was the Cape croaker

551
00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:41,590
case and of course for me I always try

552
00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:43,390
to leave people feeling a little bit

553
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:45,790
better than when they contact me because

554
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:49,330
these are very emotional experiences for

555
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:52,270
people so it's not up with everybody but

556
00:25:56,250 --> 00:25:54,370
for some of them it's really it's

557
00:26:00,000 --> 00:25:56,260
life-altering it's and it's very

558
00:26:03,390 --> 00:26:00,010
spiritual in some senses so I just I

559
00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:03,400
tried to impart on them that they're not

560
00:26:09,539 --> 00:26:06,340
alone that although I can't give them an

561
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:09,549
answer to exactly what they saw other

562
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:11,530
other people have these experiences all

563
00:26:19,020 --> 00:26:14,799
the time yeah you know and I don't care

564
00:26:20,909 --> 00:26:19,030
how weird they think it might sound I

565
00:26:23,070 --> 00:26:20,919
want to hear it all I want all the

566
00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:23,080
details tell me tell me everything

567
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:26,860
because that's where with the high

568
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:29,200
strangeness especially we may start

569
00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:32,049
seeing patterns or get little insights

570
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:35,500
or clues that that may help us if not

571
00:26:39,060 --> 00:26:37,330
resolved this certainly ask better

572
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:39,070
questions and that's that's kind of

573
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:41,530
where I'm at neither you I'm ugly yeah

574
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:45,010
better and new questions yeah you know I

575
00:26:48,630 --> 00:26:47,049
find myself doing the same thing it's

576
00:26:50,669 --> 00:26:48,640
like alright if you're going to tell me

577
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:50,679
what happened just on load

578
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:53,200
give me the raw story give it give me

579
00:26:58,409 --> 00:26:55,150
the weirdest [\h__\h] you got what's doing

580
00:27:00,960 --> 00:26:58,419
absolutely yes absolutely let's get real

581
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:00,970
let's get right down with this source

582
00:27:05,070 --> 00:27:03,970
yeah oh yeah Susan you use the term high

583
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:05,080
strangeness

584
00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:07,240
no for any listeners who might not be

585
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:09,670
familiar with this phrase took me a

586
00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:13,570
while to really truly find a good

587
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:15,460
definition of it could you explain to us

588
00:27:20,670 --> 00:27:17,410
what you mean by high strangeness in

589
00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:20,680
relation to a UFO sighting or encounter

590
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:23,980
where the term may have come from I

591
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:27,940
believe it was initially coined by dr. J

592
00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:30,970
Allen Hynek who was the astronomer who

593
00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:34,470
was a skeptic initially a scientist and

594
00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:37,000
and we worked on Project Blue Book for

595
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:39,670
the US Air Force I believe it was he

596
00:27:43,820 --> 00:27:41,650
that first mentioned it because it's in

597
00:27:49,740 --> 00:27:43,830
his address to the United Nations in

598
00:27:52,410 --> 00:27:49,750
1978 and basically what he meant is that

599
00:27:58,169 --> 00:27:52,420
these are the cases I mean UFOs are

600
00:28:01,799 --> 00:27:58,179
weird enough as as they stand but these

601
00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:01,809
are cases where we start getting into

602
00:28:08,430 --> 00:28:06,190
the sometimes absurd or very strange

603
00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:08,440
that the pair of psychological aspects

604
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:10,600
where people feel like as in the the

605
00:28:15,180 --> 00:28:13,330
Cape croaker case where they all were

606
00:28:19,110 --> 00:28:15,190
hearing voices and they felt compelled

607
00:28:20,790 --> 00:28:19,120
at the same time to look at something so

608
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:20,800
these types of cases where there may be

609
00:28:28,460 --> 00:28:23,530
two Leppa these or even poltergeist

610
00:28:29,730 --> 00:28:28,470
activity and other just strange aspects

611
00:28:32,190 --> 00:28:29,740
humanoids

612
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:32,200
seeing the occupants or the pilots of

613
00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:35,679
these things that's what he meant in

614
00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:38,620
regards to high strangeness so not just

615
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:41,140
I saw light in the sky for maybe 20

616
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:43,600
seconds and then it was gone but things

617
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:48,670
that involve very strange seemingly out

618
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:51,910
of our known reality event that occur

619
00:28:57,660 --> 00:28:53,890
along with the UFO gotcha

620
00:29:00,810 --> 00:28:57,670
okay um and now in terms of that that

621
00:29:03,930 --> 00:29:00,820
high strangeness you do in your essay in

622
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:03,940
this upcoming book you you talk about

623
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:06,910
pop culture and how it plays a pretty

624
00:29:12,750 --> 00:29:09,940
big role in terms of UFOs our editor

625
00:29:15,690 --> 00:29:12,760
Robby Graham wrote an entire book on

626
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:15,700
this subject the lately yeah how the

627
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:17,410
media how

628
00:29:23,490 --> 00:29:19,710
sir Hollywood in particular can have a

629
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:23,500
huge effect on the perception of the UFO

630
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:25,690
phenomenon and this give-and-take

631
00:29:29,490 --> 00:29:27,730
give-and-take of what's real what's not

632
00:29:31,710 --> 00:29:29,500
what did they take from the UFO

633
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:31,720
phenomenon what do what is the UFO

634
00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:35,050
phenomenon take from it and you actually

635
00:29:42,420 --> 00:29:39,630
focus on one of the benchmarks for

636
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:42,430
ufology in terms of Hollywood and that

637
00:29:47,460 --> 00:29:44,670
was close encounters of the third kind

638
00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:47,470
could you tell us a little bit about how

639
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:50,710
this film did use this high strangeness

640
00:29:56,010 --> 00:29:54,010
aspect well the one thing about the film

641
00:29:59,580 --> 00:29:56,020
that that's really striking is that

642
00:30:04,050 --> 00:29:59,590
Spielberg actually did go to UFO experts

643
00:30:06,660 --> 00:30:04,060
it was dr. Hynek and I believe dr. Valle

644
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:06,670
also although he plays like there was a

645
00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:08,470
character developed around Jacques

646
00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:10,660
Vallee I believe he was also a

647
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:13,180
consultant I may be wrong on that but I

648
00:30:17,910 --> 00:30:15,730
know that dr. Hynek for sure was a

649
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:17,920
consultant on the film so he had at this

650
00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:21,390
point amassed a lot of material on

651
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:24,040
experiencers and people he was also in

652
00:30:30,750 --> 00:30:26,770
the film too correct yes he played a

653
00:30:32,670 --> 00:30:30,760
cameo in the film that way yes when the

654
00:30:35,220 --> 00:30:32,680
mother ship comes down there's there's

655
00:30:41,010 --> 00:30:35,230
dr. Hynek which is super cool um

656
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:41,020
basically uh it really gave it gave

657
00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:44,530
audiences a taste of what a lot of these

658
00:30:53,460 --> 00:30:49,480
experiencers were describing in that the

659
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:53,470
lead protagonist Roy and Gillian the

660
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:55,840
other because of the mother who child

661
00:30:59,730 --> 00:30:58,240
gets involved with the aliens they start

662
00:31:01,710 --> 00:30:59,740
experiencing all sorts of things

663
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:01,720
synchronicity some meaningful

664
00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:04,710
coincidence they started feeling

665
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:09,640
telepathy along with the UFOs so it

666
00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:12,610
really presented UFOs is something that

667
00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:16,420
may be physical but also psychic so

668
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:19,270
there's a reality of physical reality to

669
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:21,010
it but there's also this psychic reality

670
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:25,570
and as we go through the film this sort

671
00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:28,120
of builds with with both characters and

672
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:30,430
they're sort of the ESP and all these

673
00:31:33,570 --> 00:31:31,330
other neat things

674
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:33,580
that are going on so it's one of my

675
00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:36,490
favorite films anyway despite that it's

676
00:31:42,060 --> 00:31:40,390
Pro ETH which I'm not ah lose

677
00:31:46,830 --> 00:31:42,070
interesting we'll have to touch on that

678
00:31:49,380 --> 00:31:46,840
yeah um I I don't I don't hate the ETH I

679
00:31:51,450 --> 00:31:49,390
just I just feel after 70 years it's not

680
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:51,460
really it's got us nowhere

681
00:31:57,570 --> 00:31:54,850
um and and I think that the the idea of

682
00:31:59,190 --> 00:31:57,580
aliens visiting and like little

683
00:32:02,250 --> 00:31:59,200
spaceships is kind of silly at this

684
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:02,260
point but that's my own feeling I could

685
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:05,710
be wrong I I could be wrong but I'm kind

686
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:09,010
of I'm concentrating on other areas

687
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:10,480
right now looking for those better

688
00:32:17,550 --> 00:32:14,370
questions but I it was to me the film is

689
00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:17,560
still a classic I try to watch it at

690
00:32:24,060 --> 00:32:21,070
least once a year it's amazing how well

691
00:32:25,710 --> 00:32:24,070
it holds up to be uh I watched it

692
00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:25,720
recently and you know some of the

693
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:27,460
special effects you know it is what it

694
00:32:31,110 --> 00:32:28,930
is but uh yeah

695
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:31,120
the entire you know narrative of the

696
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:33,490
story and the the research that went

697
00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:36,640
into it is fascinating and even at that

698
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:39,100
time that they were thinking about high

699
00:32:45,570 --> 00:32:41,890
strangeness or this psychic aspect of a

700
00:32:47,340 --> 00:32:45,580
UFO encounter is amazing clearly this

701
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:47,350
aspect of the phenomenon has been going

702
00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:49,570
on for a while or Spielberg would not

703
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:52,630
have put this into the film in my

704
00:32:58,610 --> 00:32:55,570
opinion so that you know while he does

705
00:33:02,100 --> 00:32:58,620
mix the ETH with this psychic aspect I

706
00:33:05,790 --> 00:33:02,110
do find it intriguing that you are

707
00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:05,800
moving away from the ETH and I know many

708
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:07,870
other people who are doing the same so

709
00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:10,450
yeah Wow this the film holds up very

710
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:13,240
well in that term then absolutely and

711
00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:16,240
you know it's it's funny because dr.

712
00:33:23,340 --> 00:33:19,480
Hynek was the the main consultant for

713
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:23,350
the film and he as well and in later

714
00:33:28,830 --> 00:33:26,470
years decided that it was more of a

715
00:33:31,410 --> 00:33:28,840
paranormal thing or that there was a

716
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:31,420
strong paranormal component in fact he

717
00:33:35,490 --> 00:33:33,370
even sort of mentions that in the UN

718
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:35,500
address as far as high strangeness and

719
00:33:41,970 --> 00:33:38,860
the absurdity goes which is why in some

720
00:33:43,770 --> 00:33:41,980
ways skeptics or cites um you know more

721
00:33:45,090 --> 00:33:43,780
mainstream scientists kind of shy away

722
00:33:47,580 --> 00:33:45,100
because

723
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:47,590
if there is this absurd factor to this

724
00:33:54,090 --> 00:33:52,000
but it does it does exist so Hynek was

725
00:33:56,370 --> 00:33:54,100
kind of with us so we're we're not

726
00:33:59,159 --> 00:33:56,380
really reinventing the wheel here but

727
00:34:00,870 --> 00:33:59,169
there were people already in the 1970s

728
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:00,880
who were kind of on board with the type

729
00:34:05,039 --> 00:34:02,530
of thinking that we're seeing in in

730
00:34:07,099 --> 00:34:05,049
Robbie's book right and you know it

731
00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:07,109
seems like throughout the decade since

732
00:34:13,919 --> 00:34:09,820
Project Blue Book was terminated that

733
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:13,929
the and within the subculture of the UFO

734
00:34:19,139 --> 00:34:17,440
community the ETH sort of took over and

735
00:34:21,389 --> 00:34:19,149
these things that ballet were talking

736
00:34:23,220 --> 00:34:21,399
about and Hynek we're talking about they

737
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:23,230
sort of got swept under the rug for a

738
00:34:29,220 --> 00:34:26,050
while we had the entire New Age and

739
00:34:32,369 --> 00:34:29,230
metaphysical movement happen but there's

740
00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:32,379
there's so much more to it I think then

741
00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:35,250
either camps are given a credit for

742
00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:37,840
whether you're nuts and bolts scientific

743
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:41,560
ufologist or a metaphysical experience

744
00:34:48,599 --> 00:34:44,470
or ufologist there is that middle ground

745
00:34:50,879 --> 00:34:48,609
that I think is so understated and I

746
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:50,889
think it's it is making a comeback right

747
00:34:56,820 --> 00:34:52,690
now and like I said we're not bringing

748
00:34:59,550 --> 00:34:56,830
forth new concepts we're only bringing

749
00:35:03,240 --> 00:34:59,560
them back into the you know the focus

750
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:03,250
and trying to build upon them exactly

751
00:35:08,099 --> 00:35:04,810
it's fascinating

752
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:08,109
um now you did mention paranormal Susan

753
00:35:13,109 --> 00:35:11,170
and I want to touch on something that I

754
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:13,119
found very interesting you did use the

755
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:17,050
word poltergeist and I know we have so

756
00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:18,850
many connotations to this idea of a

757
00:35:23,340 --> 00:35:21,340
poltergeist being connected to young

758
00:35:27,780 --> 00:35:23,350
women in particular this isn't always

759
00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:27,790
the case but you did research a case

760
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:30,430
about a young girl who was 12 years old

761
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:32,320
back in the 1950s

762
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:35,650
would you mind touching on this case in

763
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:38,560
terms of what this girl experienced with

764
00:35:45,450 --> 00:35:42,609
the UFO phenomenon oh absolutely and now

765
00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:45,460
what's interesting with her is I was

766
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:48,550
able to do an in-depth interview with

767
00:35:55,650 --> 00:35:51,130
her and this was not her first

768
00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:55,660
experience she did have an experience at

769
00:35:58,890 --> 00:35:58,450
an even younger age I think she's about

770
00:36:01,260 --> 00:35:58,900
seven

771
00:36:05,420 --> 00:36:01,270
eight years old where she saw what she

772
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:05,430
perceived as little elves driving cars

773
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:09,730
down the street Wow okay yes and and and

774
00:36:13,980 --> 00:36:11,770
and I thought that immediately when she

775
00:36:16,109 --> 00:36:13,990
told me that I jumped immediately to

776
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:16,119
Jacques fellows idea of passport in

777
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:19,210
Magana a social aspect and a folklore

778
00:36:24,690 --> 00:36:22,390
asset but when she was 12 she had an

779
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:24,700
experience again where she was I was

780
00:36:28,769 --> 00:36:26,650
late at night they were living at the

781
00:36:30,510 --> 00:36:28,779
time in Port Dalhousie here in Ontario

782
00:36:34,859 --> 00:36:30,520
on the south shore overlooking Lake

783
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:34,869
Ontario and they she was compelled to

784
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:37,630
look out the window was late at night

785
00:36:44,029 --> 00:36:41,650
she was woken up and and she looks at

786
00:36:48,299 --> 00:36:44,039
the window and she sees all these lights

787
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:48,309
over the lake sort of coming in and out

788
00:36:53,010 --> 00:36:50,170
of the lake and and and they're just

789
00:36:57,150 --> 00:36:53,020
like the sky was filled and she was so

790
00:37:00,059 --> 00:36:57,160
overwhelmed by this and she tried to

791
00:37:03,450 --> 00:37:00,069
wake up her family but they they just

792
00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:03,460
they wouldn't wake up and and that in

793
00:37:08,490 --> 00:37:04,750
itself is something else it's very

794
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:08,500
interesting and and she did she told her

795
00:37:14,430 --> 00:37:11,190
family all about this the next day and

796
00:37:18,839 --> 00:37:14,440
again the following night the same thing

797
00:37:21,240 --> 00:37:18,849
happened she gets up and she sees these

798
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:21,250
lights these balls of light that are all

799
00:37:27,569 --> 00:37:24,450
like within this area of the lake and

800
00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:27,579
and of course we know through other work

801
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:30,180
that you know the lake is a hotbed for

802
00:37:38,670 --> 00:37:33,520
UFOs going going way way back long

803
00:37:40,650 --> 00:37:38,680
before the airports and again she tried

804
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:40,660
to wake up her family but they just they

805
00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:44,410
would not wake up to view this and this

806
00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:46,270
is this was something very profound for

807
00:37:56,130 --> 00:37:50,260
her at the time and interestingly enough

808
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:56,140
in 2007 she also saw a triangle UFO much

809
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,480
much later so you can imagine this is

810
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:00,640
she had these experiences when she was a

811
00:38:03,529 --> 00:38:01,210
child

812
00:38:07,289 --> 00:38:03,539
right and then later is an older adult

813
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:07,299
with three other witnesses and so this

814
00:38:12,690 --> 00:38:11,500
triangle so again someone who has had

815
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:12,700
more than one

816
00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:15,910
very strange experience but that was an

817
00:38:20,849 --> 00:38:18,280
interesting case to me and and I thought

818
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:20,859
you know it's very difficult now because

819
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:24,609
of course you know we talking 1954 when

820
00:38:28,319 --> 00:38:26,410
this happened but it would have been

821
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:28,329
interesting at the time to maybe look at

822
00:38:32,910 --> 00:38:30,490
the dynamics of what was going on with

823
00:38:34,980 --> 00:38:32,920
in her own life and in the household and

824
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:34,990
the family and see if there was anything

825
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:38,710
maybe symbolic to her in regards to the

826
00:38:44,130 --> 00:38:41,770
UFOs appearing all of a sudden what was

827
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:44,140
going on in her life was there something

828
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,720
that she couldn't express you know which

829
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:49,119
is what we parapsychologists think in

830
00:38:54,660 --> 00:38:51,490
regards to the poltergeist is one

831
00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:54,670
working hypothesis that people have

832
00:38:59,010 --> 00:38:57,310
these things going on these anxieties in

833
00:39:02,099 --> 00:38:59,020
their lives and they're not able to

834
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:02,109
properly express them so they become

835
00:39:06,839 --> 00:39:05,710
expressed in the outer world as PK or a

836
00:39:10,470 --> 00:39:06,849
poltergeist

837
00:39:12,660 --> 00:39:10,480
so knocking on the on the walls and

838
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:12,670
others strange kind of crazy stuff like

839
00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:16,390
that which if you look at poltergeist

840
00:39:21,540 --> 00:39:18,310
cases and some of the patterns within

841
00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:21,550
them and patterns within UFOs there are

842
00:39:25,740 --> 00:39:23,950
some similarities and commonalities in

843
00:39:31,740 --> 00:39:25,750
there which I touch upon I believe in

844
00:39:34,050 --> 00:39:31,750
the esta yeah um would you care to maybe

845
00:39:36,870 --> 00:39:34,060
give us one or two of those connections

846
00:39:39,510 --> 00:39:36,880
that you think might connect UFOs with

847
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,520
poltergeists well one of the common

848
00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:41,920
things is the falling leaf pattern that

849
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:44,230
you see that people describe in UFO

850
00:39:48,990 --> 00:39:46,569
cases where they feel that they see this

851
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:49,000
craft and it's doing the falling leaf

852
00:39:54,740 --> 00:39:52,240
pattern this has been recorded numbers

853
00:39:57,180 --> 00:39:54,750
of cases but it's also recorded in

854
00:39:59,790 --> 00:39:57,190
poltergeist cases where you might have

855
00:40:03,750 --> 00:39:59,800
an object that again falls like that

856
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:03,760
falling leaf kind of I'm doing this with

857
00:40:08,490 --> 00:40:05,710
I can gesture here and can't even see

858
00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:08,500
these if you can imagine a leaf gently

859
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:10,990
falling down to the ground well I mean

860
00:40:16,109 --> 00:40:13,660
that's just one thing that I've noticed

861
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,119
in regards but there are there are other

862
00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:18,160
commonalities and sometimes they

863
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:21,060
dovetail sometimes people will have a

864
00:40:26,270 --> 00:40:24,609
UFO experience and then they will go on

865
00:40:29,690 --> 00:40:26,280
to have poltergeists like it

866
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:29,700
variances I know and and sometimes it's

867
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:35,130
in Reverse I did a case in Ontario with

868
00:40:42,380 --> 00:40:39,770
a young couple who were experiencing a

869
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:42,390
poltergeist activity in their home and

870
00:40:48,290 --> 00:40:46,710
then they both had a mass UFO experience

871
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:48,300
and this time they did call the police

872
00:40:52,820 --> 00:40:51,210
and police were not too happy about that

873
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:52,830
because you know the UFOs are not

874
00:40:59,120 --> 00:40:56,850
committing crime so you might you might

875
00:41:01,460 --> 00:40:59,130
get a sympathetic person officer who

876
00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:01,470
might you know have had his own UFO

877
00:41:04,910 --> 00:41:03,600
experience or her own UFO experience so

878
00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:04,920
they're thinking relate and they'll be

879
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:06,540
okay with you but for the vast majority

880
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:09,810
no I do not suggest calm police it's a

881
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:12,090
little above their pay grade yeah yeah I

882
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:14,490
get it yeah yeah yeah exactly I mean you

883
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:17,850
know but in that case it was almost it

884
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:19,440
was reversed they were having

885
00:41:25,340 --> 00:41:22,610
apparitions they were having like

886
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:25,350
classic poltergeist type stuff and there

887
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:27,030
was a lot of tension in the family at

888
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:29,850
the time and it just sort of almost

889
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:32,880
exploded into this this UFO experience

890
00:41:39,230 --> 00:41:36,930
Wow I am I spoke to a woman in Michigan

891
00:41:42,670 --> 00:41:39,240
here in the United States who had a very

892
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:42,680
similar experience a triangular sighting

893
00:41:49,460 --> 00:41:46,290
this is back in the early 2000s with her

894
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:49,470
daughter and a they had completely

895
00:41:54,110 --> 00:41:51,450
different perceptions the mother felt

896
00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:54,120
calm and collected didn't hear anything

897
00:41:58,820 --> 00:41:55,950
when she looked up at this while the

898
00:42:02,420 --> 00:41:58,830
daughter was absolutely terrified felt

899
00:42:05,540 --> 00:42:02,430
threatened and heard an unbearably loud

900
00:42:09,650 --> 00:42:05,550
noise as the triangle was over their

901
00:42:11,710 --> 00:42:09,660
home and then all this crazy [\h__\h]

902
00:42:15,350 --> 00:42:11,720
started to happen in their home

903
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:15,360
poltergeist activity their lights and

904
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:18,570
their cable would go out all the time

905
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:20,790
an electrician came to check out what

906
00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:23,850
was going on couldn't explain it had his

907
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:26,790
own UFO sighting over the home while he

908
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:29,610
was there Wow and said he would never

909
00:42:35,810 --> 00:42:32,400
come back it absolutely terrified him he

910
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:35,820
said I'm sorry and this guy had been you

911
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:37,680
know sort of the the neighborhood

912
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:40,250
electrician for so long

913
00:42:47,170 --> 00:42:42,890
he said I'm sorry I just can't I can't

914
00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:47,180
do this anymore so this all culminated

915
00:42:52,810 --> 00:42:51,260
into the young daughter the mother and

916
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:52,820
another daughter who claimed to have

917
00:42:58,450 --> 00:42:55,370
seen shadow people in the home

918
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:58,460
even a small being that would visit her

919
00:43:04,690 --> 00:43:02,000
in the night this completely destroyed

920
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:04,700
the family dynamic they all became very

921
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:07,370
introverted they all were having

922
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:09,710
different experiences after this initial

923
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:12,800
sighting and for them they found prayer

924
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:16,610
they prayed for whatever was going on to

925
00:43:22,060 --> 00:43:19,370
go away and for the daughters it did for

926
00:43:23,980 --> 00:43:22,070
the mother and still remains but it

927
00:43:25,830 --> 00:43:23,990
brings me it harkens me back to that

928
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:25,840
whole idea that this high strangeness

929
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:29,510
was a huge aspect and we're not just

930
00:43:33,430 --> 00:43:31,730
talking about little green men you know

931
00:43:35,890 --> 00:43:33,440
coming down zipping around and being

932
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:35,900
like hey guys were here by this is

933
00:43:41,710 --> 00:43:38,930
having huge implications on the humans

934
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:41,720
back here on the ground so oh absolutely

935
00:43:47,950 --> 00:43:45,710
and that's the thing too is that and I

936
00:43:51,610 --> 00:43:47,960
have I've spoken to more than one

937
00:43:53,650 --> 00:43:51,620
astronomer or astrophysicist and and the

938
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:53,660
fact of the matter is is that yes we

939
00:43:56,740 --> 00:43:55,520
have set eye and said eye is completely

940
00:43:58,930 --> 00:43:56,750
different than you apology they're

941
00:44:01,120 --> 00:43:58,940
looking for for life out there in the

942
00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:01,130
cosmos and and I believe there probably

943
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:04,070
is somewhere but the UFO problem is

944
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:07,130
terrestrial it always has been it occurs

945
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:10,880
to human beings on this planet we have

946
00:44:16,450 --> 00:44:12,560
no proof that it's anywhere else it's

947
00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:16,460
just it's here and and that's why I'm

948
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:19,070
trying to focus on the one tangible that

949
00:44:25,630 --> 00:44:21,520
we do have and that is the human being

950
00:44:28,450 --> 00:44:25,640
that's experiencing this and I will I

951
00:44:30,940 --> 00:44:28,460
will posit this to you as well if this

952
00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:30,950
were little green men behind these these

953
00:44:37,060 --> 00:44:33,640
experiences why would prayer work

954
00:44:39,930 --> 00:44:37,070
exactly you know why would they would

955
00:44:44,110 --> 00:44:39,940
they even know what prayer is no no so

956
00:44:48,220 --> 00:44:44,120
and that is actually not unusual I have

957
00:44:50,890 --> 00:44:48,230
come across many cases and more in line

958
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:50,900
with the abductees where some of them

959
00:44:58,210 --> 00:44:53,690
feel that they have invoked

960
00:45:02,950 --> 00:44:58,220
you know Jesus their Christian and it

961
00:45:05,799 --> 00:45:02,960
works so what what is that telling us

962
00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:05,809
about the phenomena but that prayer can

963
00:45:12,609 --> 00:45:09,049
help you know put it away you know right

964
00:45:18,579 --> 00:45:12,619
so that allows me if this was an alien

965
00:45:21,130 --> 00:45:18,589
invasion you know on one family prayer

966
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:21,140
isn't the first shield that I think they

967
00:45:25,930 --> 00:45:24,319
would they they go okay we got to go

968
00:45:28,900 --> 00:45:25,940
there they're praying let's get out of

969
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:28,910
here it just doesn't make sense it's not

970
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:33,710
logical exactly the idea the UFO problem

971
00:45:38,410 --> 00:45:36,410
is terrestrial uh that is a term I'm

972
00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:38,420
going to be using for now on so you

973
00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:42,319
might want to copyright that in because

974
00:45:46,299 --> 00:45:44,630
it's so sharing and share we could share

975
00:45:48,249 --> 00:45:46,309
we can all share that's what we have to

976
00:45:50,620 --> 00:45:48,259
do as researchers share your goddamn

977
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:50,630
information guys come on absolutely

978
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:52,609
absolutely stop saving it for a rainy

979
00:46:01,200 --> 00:45:57,190
day I love it something else I want to

980
00:46:05,170 --> 00:46:01,210
actually touch on is this idea that if

981
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:05,180
if these UFO sightings are happening to

982
00:46:09,339 --> 00:46:08,690
an individual you know we have math

983
00:46:11,499 --> 00:46:09,349
sightings

984
00:46:13,990 --> 00:46:11,509
obviously they happen all the time but

985
00:46:17,019 --> 00:46:14,000
there's something to this idea that

986
00:46:20,019 --> 00:46:17,029
whatever is happening uh whatever is in

987
00:46:23,230 --> 00:46:20,029
control of these anomalies in the sky it

988
00:46:27,339 --> 00:46:23,240
almost feels as though they want to only

989
00:46:31,390 --> 00:46:27,349
be seen or only affect one person at a

990
00:46:33,730 --> 00:46:31,400
time we have so many sightings that have

991
00:46:36,549 --> 00:46:33,740
occurred to only one individual no

992
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:36,559
cooperating witnesses but there seems to

993
00:46:41,759 --> 00:46:38,210
be something to that Susan I don't know

994
00:46:44,259 --> 00:46:41,769
if you agree it seems to be happening

995
00:46:47,470 --> 00:46:44,269
individual by individual we're getting

996
00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:47,480
these gradual small disclosures as it

997
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:50,569
were and that seems to really tie into

998
00:46:57,819 --> 00:46:54,049
this idea of hitting the psyche one by

999
00:47:01,480 --> 00:46:57,829
one it does and it also kind of

1000
00:47:04,630 --> 00:47:01,490
dovetails with what we know has been

1001
00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:04,640
documented about ghosts which has been

1002
00:47:07,530 --> 00:47:06,710
documented a little bit more than the

1003
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:07,540
UFOs

1004
00:47:13,170 --> 00:47:09,490
as far as like the Society for psychical

1005
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:13,180
research and that where you have you

1006
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:16,510
could have an apparition that is seen by

1007
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:18,640
maybe out of a group of five - people

1008
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:22,210
will see a solid looking person another

1009
00:47:26,910 --> 00:47:25,330
person might see nothing and you know

1010
00:47:29,370 --> 00:47:26,920
now the person might just see a shadow

1011
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:29,380
or or something else it's just you know

1012
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:31,930
not not cooperating what the others are

1013
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:35,200
seeing so you see that as well there and

1014
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:38,170
also the single witness as opposed to

1015
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:42,160
multiple witnesses so that is possible

1016
00:47:49,050 --> 00:47:45,520
but we do have also UFO and says you

1017
00:47:52,310 --> 00:47:49,060
know and one of the things that I've

1018
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:52,320
been doing and concentrating on with my

1019
00:48:01,920 --> 00:47:55,930
collaborator dr. Eric Willett who wrote

1020
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:01,930
the book illumination yes yes is how how

1021
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:04,330
looking at what is going on in the

1022
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:07,450
greater society at the time how that may

1023
00:48:14,190 --> 00:48:11,770
affect UFOs in a global consciousness on

1024
00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:14,200
a mass scale such as in we concentrated

1025
00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:18,750
on the Belgian wave of 1990 and the

1026
00:48:25,770 --> 00:48:23,980
concurrent Russian wave of 1989 a UFO

1027
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:25,780
waves in Europe at that time

1028
00:48:29,850 --> 00:48:27,850
and what is interesting is you have

1029
00:48:34,980 --> 00:48:29,860
multiple witnesses it was very well

1030
00:48:37,470 --> 00:48:34,990
documented you have the the Belgian Air

1031
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:37,480
Force cooperating with us colleges it

1032
00:48:43,020 --> 00:48:40,330
was a really neat time but if you start

1033
00:48:45,930 --> 00:48:43,030
looking at what was going on in Europe

1034
00:48:48,450 --> 00:48:45,940
with the fall of the Berlin Wall with

1035
00:48:51,870 --> 00:48:48,460
the crumbling of the Soviet Union you

1036
00:48:54,930 --> 00:48:51,880
can only imagine the anxieties and the

1037
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:54,940
concerns of all these people at that

1038
00:49:00,900 --> 00:48:58,240
time and you have a UFO wave over NATO

1039
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,910
headquarters Wow

1040
00:49:05,460 --> 00:49:03,520
yes so just think about that if you have

1041
00:49:08,820 --> 00:49:05,470
all these people who it was this a cry

1042
00:49:12,690 --> 00:49:08,830
for help with this helped me you know

1043
00:49:15,210 --> 00:49:12,700
mm-hmm pay attention look you know I

1044
00:49:18,540 --> 00:49:15,220
mean we don't know what I personally

1045
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:18,550
believe that the UFOs are symbolic and

1046
00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:21,250
they can be very personalized but

1047
00:49:28,020 --> 00:49:24,070
I also feel they can be symbolic and and

1048
00:49:31,290 --> 00:49:28,030
be meaningful to a greater society say

1049
00:49:33,690 --> 00:49:31,300
absolutely I think and yeah that that's

1050
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:33,700
where the idea of a individual sighting

1051
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:37,570
or a mass sighting how far does the

1052
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:41,770
impact reach you know you look at the

1053
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:44,110
Phoenix lights back in the you know here

1054
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:47,170
in America you look at the 1952 wave

1055
00:49:52,650 --> 00:49:50,650
over Washington yeah clearly during Cold

1056
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:52,660
War times yeah

1057
00:50:00,720 --> 00:49:57,520
very interesting yeah absolutely and and

1058
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:00,730
and when you start kind of looking at

1059
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:02,470
concentrating away from what the craft

1060
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:04,570
right of it because you can have all

1061
00:50:11,100 --> 00:50:07,770
sorts of different types of crafts and

1062
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:11,110
shapes and and all sorts of different I

1063
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:12,880
don't know how many I've lost count how

1064
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:14,650
many humanoids there could possibly be

1065
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:18,370
there significant supposin pilot they're

1066
00:50:27,570 --> 00:50:23,440
all very individual as well but if you

1067
00:50:30,180 --> 00:50:27,580
start concentrating on the people then

1068
00:50:33,660 --> 00:50:30,190
you might start getting more insights

1069
00:50:34,980 --> 00:50:33,670
and again back to better questions right

1070
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:34,990
because this is something that you

1071
00:50:41,220 --> 00:50:38,650
apologists don't really do they they

1072
00:50:43,260 --> 00:50:41,230
will take down reports they want to know

1073
00:50:44,850 --> 00:50:43,270
what time they want to know what it

1074
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:44,860
looked like they want to know the

1075
00:50:48,450 --> 00:50:46,570
weather conditions they're trying to

1076
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:48,460
debunk and find there's a place for that

1077
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:50,590
but it's really not getting us any

1078
00:50:57,570 --> 00:50:53,770
closer to what this might be

1079
00:51:01,770 --> 00:50:57,580
in my opinion we've had 70 years of that

1080
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:01,780
we need something new a great seems like

1081
00:51:06,750 --> 00:51:04,210
we're preaching to the choir as it were

1082
00:51:07,860 --> 00:51:06,760
between us but I think this this is the

1083
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:07,870
kind of thing that's going to wake

1084
00:51:15,780 --> 00:51:10,690
people up the idea that we're not just

1085
00:51:19,770 --> 00:51:15,790
dealing with an alien presence from some

1086
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:19,780
other planet coming to earth to warn us

1087
00:51:24,570 --> 00:51:21,850
of something there's far more complex

1088
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:24,580
questions to be asked than that it is a

1089
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:27,760
product of the time when be sci-fi

1090
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:30,130
movies were coming out it is a product

1091
00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:33,910
of even the Kenneth Arnold the inception

1092
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:34,870
of the modern UFO

1093
00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:37,090
era the Kenneth Arnold sighting which

1094
00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:41,230
was misconstrued to begin with with the

1095
00:51:48,090 --> 00:51:45,190
whole flying saucer aspect yes it's

1096
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:48,100
fascinating it really is I do some of

1097
00:51:52,170 --> 00:51:49,870
them some of them are predictive as well

1098
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,180
like I mean with the the case of the

1099
00:51:56,370 --> 00:51:54,640
Swedish rocket people were seeing these

1100
00:51:58,590 --> 00:51:56,380
Rockets before they were truly being

1101
00:52:01,500 --> 00:51:58,600
invented before they were just but I

1102
00:52:03,870 --> 00:52:01,510
mean only by a few years so it's like

1103
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:03,880
it's almost as if the phenomena was

1104
00:52:09,090 --> 00:52:06,480
having precognition of what was

1105
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:09,100
anticipating you know and anticipating

1106
00:52:14,910 --> 00:52:11,560
the space race it's almost like our

1107
00:52:18,270 --> 00:52:14,920
belief is sort of being led or guided

1108
00:52:20,580 --> 00:52:18,280
somehow yeah I think so yeah agreed I

1109
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:20,590
was asked recently you know do you think

1110
00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:23,260
we'll ever know what UFOs really are and

1111
00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:26,590
I think I bummed out the interviewer and

1112
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:28,660
I said no I think it's always going to

1113
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:31,390
be a step ahead of us I don't know if it

1114
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:33,370
means to do that I just think it's so

1115
00:52:40,620 --> 00:52:37,450
far advanced and or technological and

1116
00:52:44,010 --> 00:52:40,630
that it can do that that it can help

1117
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:44,020
guide us and maybe that's good maybe

1118
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:46,090
it'll be good for Humanity eventually I

1119
00:52:52,020 --> 00:52:50,710
I hope so I do yeah not it's like the

1120
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:52,030
biggest Trojan horse

1121
00:52:57,300 --> 00:52:54,790
I can imagine actually the cosmic the

1122
00:52:59,340 --> 00:52:57,310
cosmic trickster each time sometimes

1123
00:53:01,650 --> 00:52:59,350
people people were you know they were

1124
00:53:04,140 --> 00:53:01,660
late very good experiences and they feel

1125
00:53:06,420 --> 00:53:04,150
that they are better for this and then

1126
00:53:08,430 --> 00:53:06,430
others have had these horrendous

1127
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:08,440
experiences it's almost as if the

1128
00:53:12,750 --> 00:53:11,050
phenomena itself when stripped away of

1129
00:53:16,350 --> 00:53:12,760
all these descriptors is really

1130
00:53:18,810 --> 00:53:16,360
indifferent to what's going on

1131
00:53:21,330 --> 00:53:18,820
young Carly I'm getting back to him

1132
00:53:25,340 --> 00:53:21,340
quickly he he noted this and he was

1133
00:53:29,310 --> 00:53:25,350
already looking at UFOs in 1947 as well

1134
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:29,320
but he noted that his in his conclusions

1135
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:31,090
he felt that they were psychic

1136
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:33,040
manifestation through a collective

1137
00:53:39,660 --> 00:53:36,370
consciousness and he felt that the UFOs

1138
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:39,670
back in ancient times were the gods this

1139
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:42,910
is what people were seeing it wasn't

1140
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:45,250
that they were mistaking aliens but it

1141
00:53:48,660 --> 00:53:48,010
was appropriate for their time and they

1142
00:53:52,620 --> 00:53:48,670
were seeing

1143
00:53:55,910 --> 00:53:52,630
in the sky and now just prior to the

1144
00:53:58,650 --> 00:53:55,920
space race we're seeing spaceships

1145
00:54:02,430 --> 00:53:58,660
we're being almost guided and driven to

1146
00:54:04,799 --> 00:54:02,440
look beyond this planet right it's yes

1147
00:54:06,930 --> 00:54:04,809
like you know at one time it was these

1148
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:06,940
were gods now it's these are aliens

1149
00:54:13,530 --> 00:54:09,790
what's next you know what is next and

1150
00:54:15,569 --> 00:54:13,540
whatever that is it always reflects back

1151
00:54:18,450 --> 00:54:15,579
to us as humans whether it's gods or

1152
00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:18,460
aliens and that's where the whole you

1153
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:20,319
know sociological aspect of this entire

1154
00:54:27,089 --> 00:54:24,730
thing I think resides is it's always a

1155
00:54:29,010 --> 00:54:27,099
reflection of us no matter what we

1156
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:29,020
believe it to be no matter what it might

1157
00:54:36,089 --> 00:54:33,670
be exactly that's why sometimes prayer

1158
00:54:38,460 --> 00:54:36,099
can work yes you know it can work for

1159
00:54:40,530 --> 00:54:38,470
some people it probably won't work for

1160
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:40,540
someone who doesn't believe in it yeah

1161
00:54:45,809 --> 00:54:43,290
in prayer but if someone has that faith

1162
00:54:47,700 --> 00:54:45,819
obviously there is various you know

1163
00:54:50,099 --> 00:54:47,710
there's evidence to show that it does

1164
00:54:52,260 --> 00:54:50,109
work for some people and you're so right

1165
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:52,270
I think it's gonna morph maybe not

1166
00:54:57,420 --> 00:54:54,880
within our lifetime I don't know I kind

1167
00:55:00,990 --> 00:54:57,430
of am excited to see it it's a tough but

1168
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:01,000
I think that eventually it will be

1169
00:55:07,950 --> 00:55:04,170
morphed into something else

1170
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:07,960
Gamzee um well there's other one other

1171
00:55:12,599 --> 00:55:10,960
case I wanted to touch on Susan um this

1172
00:55:15,809 --> 00:55:12,609
happened in Woodstock New York which

1173
00:55:18,059 --> 00:55:15,819
we're all familiar with would you try to

1174
00:55:20,579 --> 00:55:18,069
tell us a little bit about Scott Rogo

1175
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:20,589
and this amazing story about this young

1176
00:55:28,980 --> 00:55:25,569
couple oh yes Scott Rogo he he was one

1177
00:55:31,799 --> 00:55:28,990
of the few pair of psychologists and he

1178
00:55:33,450 --> 00:55:31,809
wrote a book The Haunted universe that

1179
00:55:35,579 --> 00:55:33,460
is now available again I believe to

1180
00:55:38,579 --> 00:55:35,589
anomalous books you can get some of his

1181
00:55:42,750 --> 00:55:38,589
stuff unfortunately he's no longer with

1182
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:42,760
us a very tragic case with Scott Rogo he

1183
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:44,530
was he was murdered and it's it's an

1184
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:48,640
unsolved murder to this day yeah yeah so

1185
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:51,040
very a lot of high strangeness around

1186
00:55:57,359 --> 00:55:52,990
him as well

1187
00:55:59,839 --> 00:55:57,369
but he he was a parent psychologist that

1188
00:56:02,520 --> 00:55:59,849
really tried to take UFOs seriously and

1189
00:56:04,980 --> 00:56:02,530
and he investigated this

1190
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:04,990
very strange case in Woodstock and I'll

1191
00:56:09,390 --> 00:56:06,610
just I'll relate a little bit of it to

1192
00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:09,400
you and you can tell me like is this a

1193
00:56:14,790 --> 00:56:11,800
UFO encounter or is it a poltergeist er

1194
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:14,800
yeah you're at verbatim I love T okay so

1195
00:56:19,890 --> 00:56:17,530
yeah I'm going to tell you they write it

1196
00:56:22,740 --> 00:56:19,900
from my essay here in this in the spring

1197
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:22,750
of 1966 a young couple who were renting

1198
00:56:29,820 --> 00:56:25,780
a small house in a semi forested area of

1199
00:56:32,730 --> 00:56:29,830
Woodstock in New York noticed the six

1200
00:56:36,690 --> 00:56:32,740
greenish lights that were about six feet

1201
00:56:38,340 --> 00:56:36,700
in diameter and a nearby field now on

1202
00:56:41,580 --> 00:56:38,350
another occasion they saw something

1203
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:41,590
flying close to their car and move

1204
00:56:46,410 --> 00:56:43,690
towards a wooded area while making like

1205
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:46,420
this high-pitched sounds like a like a

1206
00:56:51,270 --> 00:56:48,400
vacuum cleaner droning it's how they

1207
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:51,280
describe it now they heard these sounds

1208
00:56:57,570 --> 00:56:53,200
many times over a period of several

1209
00:56:59,370 --> 00:56:57,580
months then one afternoon the sound

1210
00:57:02,820 --> 00:56:59,380
seemed to stop moving and stayed

1211
00:57:04,770 --> 00:57:02,830
stationary over the house and the woman

1212
00:57:06,660 --> 00:57:04,780
looked at all the electrical equipment

1213
00:57:10,620 --> 00:57:06,670
in the house and she couldn't find a

1214
00:57:13,350 --> 00:57:10,630
source it seems to be located inside the

1215
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:13,360
houses walls no this is something that

1216
00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:16,510
we see again in poltergeist cases the

1217
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:18,880
couple verified this from outside of the

1218
00:57:24,990 --> 00:57:21,490
house and they could see anything at all

1219
00:57:27,330 --> 00:57:25,000
strange like within the wall but when

1220
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:27,340
they looked at the nearby field they saw

1221
00:57:32,430 --> 00:57:30,310
green lights again and a similar like a

1222
00:57:34,790 --> 00:57:32,440
red one that was I guess like a little

1223
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:34,800
orb was moving away from each other

1224
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:38,290
until they disappeared so this really

1225
00:57:44,190 --> 00:57:40,690
frightened them it was a frightening

1226
00:57:46,650 --> 00:57:44,200
experience but that was not everything

1227
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:46,660
that was that was going to happen they

1228
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:48,490
also heard a man's voice like a

1229
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:51,280
disembodied voice sounds of someone

1230
00:57:55,860 --> 00:57:53,530
walking around their house that again

1231
00:58:01,290 --> 00:57:55,870
disembodied and they were really

1232
00:58:03,060 --> 00:58:01,300
panicked by this point and and soon

1233
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:03,070
after they found like this patch of

1234
00:58:07,530 --> 00:58:05,710
grass near their house that was flat and

1235
00:58:10,530 --> 00:58:07,540
sort of scorched something that you

1236
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:10,540
would find in you know in a UFO landing

1237
00:58:15,660 --> 00:58:13,450
cave and and this went on for an entire

1238
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:15,670
summer until they just I guess they

1239
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:16,330
finally had a

1240
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:19,210
enough of it and and they left they left

1241
00:58:24,140 --> 00:58:22,330
the location but again if you look at

1242
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:24,150
this these are people that are having

1243
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:27,210
UFO experiences while at the same time

1244
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:31,450
having ghostly experiences so they're

1245
00:58:37,410 --> 00:58:34,330
kind of concurrent and you know there

1246
00:58:39,630 --> 00:58:37,420
can be the argument made that well you

1247
00:58:41,310 --> 00:58:39,640
know correlation is not necessarily

1248
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:41,320
causation just because they're happening

1249
00:58:45,180 --> 00:58:42,910
concurrently they could be two separate

1250
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:45,190
events and there can be that case made

1251
00:58:49,530 --> 00:58:46,770
but you know we have so many

1252
00:58:53,100 --> 00:58:49,540
overwhelming cases like this like the

1253
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:53,110
one that you described to me that and

1254
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:54,880
that's just one of who knows how many

1255
00:59:01,590 --> 00:58:57,730
thousands or hundreds of thousands the

1256
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:01,600
history of UFOs on this planet and you

1257
00:59:06,780 --> 00:59:04,000
know it's starting to get like no you

1258
00:59:11,310 --> 00:59:06,790
can't ignore this stuff it seems to

1259
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:11,320
coincide an often absolutely and you

1260
00:59:17,310 --> 00:59:14,050
know many researchers within the UFO

1261
00:59:21,630 --> 00:59:17,320
field or the paranormal field or you

1262
00:59:24,780 --> 00:59:21,640
know the parapsychological field we tend

1263
00:59:30,810 --> 00:59:24,790
to edit all the time if it doesn't fit

1264
00:59:33,390 --> 00:59:30,820
our box of UFO or ETH or poltergeist

1265
00:59:36,210 --> 00:59:33,400
we will brush it aside to bring forth

1266
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:36,220
the you know the preconceived notions we

1267
00:59:41,790 --> 00:59:38,250
might have of what this experience was

1268
00:59:44,910 --> 00:59:41,800
and we're all guilty of it sometimes but

1269
00:59:48,090 --> 00:59:44,920
I think the responsible researchers will

1270
00:59:50,070 --> 00:59:48,100
like you said write down everything and

1271
00:59:53,340 --> 00:59:50,080
they might be connected or they might

1272
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:53,350
not who are we to say but I think by

1273
01:00:01,530 --> 00:59:57,210
editing from the start we're already

1274
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:01,540
doing poor research we're already uh you

1275
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:04,210
know painting the experience says it

1276
01:00:09,810 --> 01:00:07,450
were all exactly and you see that too

1277
01:00:12,780 --> 01:00:09,820
and in some of the online forums where

1278
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:12,790
you might have someone come up and post

1279
01:00:17,010 --> 01:00:14,530
some very strange things and then you

1280
01:00:19,650 --> 01:00:17,020
have more of these nuts and bolts you

1281
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:19,660
know UFO people that are you know

1282
01:00:22,620 --> 01:00:21,370
they're they're pooh-poohing on it or

1283
01:00:25,950 --> 01:00:22,630
saying now are they're making this

1284
01:00:28,650 --> 01:00:25,960
person have to be crazy and you know and

1285
01:00:29,819 --> 01:00:28,660
I understand to a point that some of the

1286
01:00:31,739 --> 01:00:29,829
people involved and you

1287
01:00:33,059 --> 01:00:31,749
apology they want to think they feel

1288
01:00:36,479 --> 01:00:33,069
they need to bring some sort of

1289
01:00:37,949 --> 01:00:36,489
scientific respectability but this is

1290
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:37,959
certainly not the way you're going to go

1291
01:00:44,549 --> 01:00:41,410
about it is by discounting large reams

1292
01:00:47,849 --> 01:00:44,559
of information that just doesn't fit

1293
01:00:49,979 --> 01:00:47,859
into what you feel should be a good UFO

1294
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:49,989
case it's the same thing with saying you

1295
01:00:54,420 --> 01:00:52,690
know oh you know a person is a pilot or

1296
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:54,430
they're a better witness well not

1297
01:00:59,849 --> 01:00:56,890
necessarily we all have eyes we all have

1298
01:01:01,680 --> 01:00:59,859
ears no one person is going to be better

1299
01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:01,690
than another person as being an

1300
01:01:06,660 --> 01:01:04,569
experience and I want to certainly hear

1301
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:06,670
everything and and that's what I tell

1302
01:01:09,809 --> 01:01:08,410
people when I talk to them just tell me

1303
01:01:12,209 --> 01:01:09,819
everything you know

1304
01:01:14,339 --> 01:01:12,219
no judgement here because you know what

1305
01:01:16,229 --> 01:01:14,349
I can't judge I I know that I've had

1306
01:01:17,789 --> 01:01:16,239
very strange experiences so I'm

1307
01:01:21,269 --> 01:01:17,799
certainly not going to judge anyone else

1308
01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:21,279
and I I think we need to bring these

1309
01:01:27,690 --> 01:01:24,190
types of experiences in cases to the

1310
01:01:33,059 --> 01:01:27,700
fore and so that people understand this

1311
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:33,069
is a very complex complex issue and it

1312
01:01:37,890 --> 01:01:36,130
can't just be you know like swept under

1313
01:01:40,620 --> 01:01:37,900
the rug certain things because it might

1314
01:01:43,469 --> 01:01:40,630
make others sound a little crazy or you

1315
01:01:45,180 --> 01:01:43,479
know if you know what I'm saying I think

1316
01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:45,190
I think again preaching to the choir

1317
01:01:51,059 --> 01:01:48,910
here um and also being respectful of

1318
01:01:53,549 --> 01:01:51,069
people's feelings and and how we leave

1319
01:01:54,900 --> 01:01:53,559
them because you know these are real

1320
01:01:57,029 --> 01:01:54,910
human beings and what you want to

1321
01:01:58,890 --> 01:01:57,039
believe may have or may not happen if

1322
01:02:02,819 --> 01:01:58,900
you believe that you can debunk

1323
01:02:05,279 --> 01:02:02,829
something this person they've taken this

1324
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:05,289
in as an actual experience and they're

1325
01:02:11,189 --> 01:02:08,170
experiencing it as they're telling it

1326
01:02:14,969 --> 01:02:11,199
this is this is how they have perceived

1327
01:02:16,469 --> 01:02:14,979
it so it is very real in that sense so

1328
01:02:19,799 --> 01:02:16,479
you have to always be mindful of that I

1329
01:02:22,999 --> 01:02:19,809
think - oh no yeah and you know the

1330
01:02:27,390 --> 01:02:23,009
beauty of science and philosophy and

1331
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:27,400
sociology and belief in general is that

1332
01:02:35,279 --> 01:02:31,930
it can always change you know oh there's

1333
01:02:37,859 --> 01:02:35,289
the dogma to religion but other than

1334
01:02:40,019 --> 01:02:37,869
that like these things are constantly

1335
01:02:41,329 --> 01:02:40,029
evolving and changing and being built

1336
01:02:44,779 --> 01:02:41,339
upon so

1337
01:02:48,799 --> 01:02:44,789
I couldn't agree more absolutely in

1338
01:02:52,249 --> 01:02:48,809
terms of researchers Susan are there any

1339
01:02:53,809 --> 01:02:52,259
individuals who really inspire you or

1340
01:02:56,449 --> 01:02:53,819
anyone you could recommend to our

1341
01:02:58,579 --> 01:02:56,459
listeners to check out in terms of like

1342
01:03:03,140 --> 01:02:58,589
what you're looking at currently in the

1343
01:03:08,089 --> 01:03:03,150
UFO study um currently the two current

1344
01:03:10,429 --> 01:03:08,099
my - I guess main inspiration points are

1345
01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:10,439
going to be my friend dr. Eric Willett

1346
01:03:16,069 --> 01:03:14,160
and my colleague who I helped with his

1347
01:03:17,449 --> 01:03:16,079
first book illuminations I did the

1348
01:03:21,459 --> 01:03:17,459
editing on it and I did some of the

1349
01:03:26,719 --> 01:03:21,469
background research some of his ideas on

1350
01:03:31,370 --> 01:03:26,729
sociology in regards to UFO cases and a

1351
01:03:32,989 --> 01:03:31,380
large wave a very inspirational to me so

1352
01:03:35,599 --> 01:03:32,999
I would recommend his book it's called

1353
01:03:39,370 --> 01:03:35,609
illuminations the UFO experience as a

1354
01:03:42,439 --> 01:03:39,380
parapsychological event wonderful book

1355
01:03:45,499 --> 01:03:42,449
making my way through it yeah and let's

1356
01:03:49,309 --> 01:03:45,509
look for another book soon on the

1357
01:03:51,289 --> 01:03:49,319
similar topic from Eric and yeah so

1358
01:03:53,899 --> 01:03:51,299
there's there's more coming from him my

1359
01:03:57,019 --> 01:03:53,909
second one is not someone that is well

1360
01:03:58,969 --> 01:03:57,029
known in North America but it's very

1361
01:04:02,209 --> 01:03:58,979
well known in Europe and that is dr.

1362
01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:02,219
Massimo Chia Durrani who I also quote

1363
01:04:08,479 --> 01:04:05,640
and cite in the essay quite a bit and he

1364
01:04:10,939 --> 01:04:08,489
has a book in English it's the first one

1365
01:04:12,529 --> 01:04:10,949
he has many books in Italian but this is

1366
01:04:17,539 --> 01:04:12,539
the first English book it's called the

1367
01:04:20,620 --> 01:04:17,549
hyperspace of consciousness and it it's

1368
01:04:24,380 --> 01:04:20,630
a bit of a heavy read because this is

1369
01:04:26,929 --> 01:04:24,390
astrophysics but it does really get into

1370
01:04:30,289 --> 01:04:26,939
several different hypotheses that

1371
01:04:33,140 --> 01:04:30,299
revolve around the paranormal and UFOs

1372
01:04:37,189 --> 01:04:33,150
and he does talk about the importance of

1373
01:04:40,370 --> 01:04:37,199
synchronicity he even gets into he did

1374
01:04:43,699 --> 01:04:40,380
some interesting work with a medium of

1375
01:04:46,390 --> 01:04:43,709
french medium and he he tries to get a

1376
01:04:49,459 --> 01:04:46,400
bit of a science to spirit communication

1377
01:04:51,919 --> 01:04:49,469
and and i just i think it's a wonderful

1378
01:04:54,740 --> 01:04:51,929
book it actually he has more than one

1379
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:54,750
hypothesis in here and the hypothesis

1380
01:05:00,920 --> 01:04:57,330
they compete with each other which is

1381
01:05:04,010 --> 01:05:00,930
like how cool is that and yeah he talks

1382
01:05:08,810 --> 01:05:04,020
about how with some of these like light

1383
01:05:10,339 --> 01:05:08,820
balls that show intelligence that that

1384
01:05:12,170 --> 01:05:10,349
perhaps there is an intelligence behind

1385
01:05:13,910 --> 01:05:12,180
and perhaps perhaps there a life form

1386
01:05:15,650 --> 01:05:13,920
that we just don't even know yet you

1387
01:05:18,500 --> 01:05:15,660
know and this is coming from a

1388
01:05:20,540 --> 01:05:18,510
professional scientist so again I would

1389
01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:20,550
say Massimo Tudor Annie the hyperspace

1390
01:05:27,620 --> 01:05:23,609
of consciousness anyone who wants a

1391
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:27,630
basic idea I would say anything shock

1392
01:05:34,010 --> 01:05:31,290
ballet you know start backs 1969

1393
01:05:39,830 --> 01:05:34,020
passports Magana still relevant today

1394
01:05:43,250 --> 01:05:39,840
today anything from dr. Hynek I also a

1395
01:05:45,740 --> 01:05:43,260
big subscriber to George Hanson series

1396
01:05:49,070 --> 01:05:45,750
of the trickster and a paranormal yes

1397
01:05:50,540 --> 01:05:49,080
and that's it that is another kind of

1398
01:05:52,730 --> 01:05:50,550
difficult read so I would suggest

1399
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:52,740
picking it up and just as he does

1400
01:05:57,170 --> 01:05:55,530
himself go chapter like just read one

1401
01:05:59,329 --> 01:05:57,180
chapter you can go back and forth in the

1402
01:06:01,520 --> 01:05:59,339
book and just try to soak some of this

1403
01:06:04,609 --> 01:06:01,530
stuff in it's really heady stuff but

1404
01:06:07,310 --> 01:06:04,619
it's very good it gets you thinking I

1405
01:06:10,700 --> 01:06:07,320
would also like to and this is out of

1406
01:06:13,609 --> 01:06:10,710
print just mentioned a Harley Rutledge

1407
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:13,619
this book project identification which

1408
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:16,410
is for more perhaps people that want to

1409
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:19,530
go into the field and study UFOs this is

1410
01:06:28,730 --> 01:06:23,520
a field study and very well done

1411
01:06:30,620 --> 01:06:28,740
scientific study of UFOs and it also

1412
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:30,630
gets into the high strangeness because

1413
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:32,490
the scientists who went out to study

1414
01:06:38,089 --> 01:06:35,970
objectively these UFOs that were

1415
01:06:41,870 --> 01:06:38,099
occurring at the time in Piedmont and

1416
01:06:43,310 --> 01:06:41,880
the United States and Missouri they

1417
01:06:47,050 --> 01:06:43,320
started having high strangeness

1418
01:06:49,579 --> 01:06:47,060
experiences with with synchronicity and

1419
01:06:52,370 --> 01:06:49,589
possible telepathy and that with with

1420
01:06:55,310 --> 01:06:52,380
these light balls and and to his credit

1421
01:06:57,380 --> 01:06:55,320
he does not edit that out as a scientist

1422
01:06:59,120 --> 01:06:57,390
he gave me a full disclosure that you

1423
01:07:00,890 --> 01:06:59,130
know there's there's an intelligence oh

1424
01:07:02,900 --> 01:07:00,900
there's seemingly an intelligence or

1425
01:07:05,390 --> 01:07:02,910
something going on a little bit more

1426
01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:05,400
than just strange lights that appear in

1427
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:08,160
a field kind of thing so

1428
01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:11,520
not yeah the rebel of scientific UFO

1429
01:07:19,220 --> 01:07:15,510
research love it yes yes so those those

1430
01:07:21,710 --> 01:07:19,230
are be my recommendations right now for

1431
01:07:25,039 --> 01:07:21,720
anyone that's kind of interested you

1432
01:07:29,690 --> 01:07:25,049
know great III just earlier my little

1433
01:07:32,359 --> 01:07:29,700
yeah yeah well what are you working on

1434
01:07:35,690 --> 01:07:32,369
now Susan what can we expect from you in

1435
01:07:37,940 --> 01:07:35,700
the near future I have a couple of

1436
01:07:42,109 --> 01:07:37,950
projects that I'm running right now

1437
01:07:47,829 --> 01:07:42,119
these are experiments I have been I've

1438
01:07:52,779 --> 01:07:47,839
been been incorporating a magic which

1439
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:52,789
the practice of magic with uh with UFO

1440
01:08:00,890 --> 01:07:55,920
manifestation and trying to I've been

1441
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:00,900
using magic sort of in the tool to to

1442
01:08:12,950 --> 01:08:08,970
sort of invoke provoke interact with the

1443
01:08:15,170 --> 01:08:12,960
phenomena itself so I really can't get

1444
01:08:17,660 --> 01:08:15,180
into too much details I am I'm

1445
01:08:20,539 --> 01:08:17,670
collaborating again with softer Theodore

1446
01:08:23,150 --> 01:08:20,549
Annie on that and one of the projects

1447
01:08:25,700 --> 01:08:23,160
and I have a group that's another group

1448
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:25,710
that's doing a project that is inspired

1449
01:08:32,090 --> 01:08:29,130
by I don't know if you know the work of

1450
01:08:34,700 --> 01:08:32,100
the Owens and the Philip phenomena which

1451
01:08:37,579 --> 01:08:34,710
was a ghost that they tried to create in

1452
01:08:41,300 --> 01:08:37,589
the lab here in Toronto yes I remember

1453
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:41,310
hearing about that yeah yeah so I'm was

1454
01:08:48,559 --> 01:08:45,170
inspired by that to take some ideas and

1455
01:08:50,599 --> 01:08:48,569
formulate some experiments which I am

1456
01:08:54,169 --> 01:08:50,609
doing currently ah

1457
01:08:59,499 --> 01:08:54,179
and that hopefully will be the basis for

1458
01:09:04,490 --> 01:08:59,509
a book a forthcoming book on UFOs magic

1459
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:04,500
synchronicity the phenomena I hope so my

1460
01:09:11,390 --> 01:09:07,489
god that sounds extremely compelling

1461
01:09:14,180 --> 01:09:11,400
yeah and it's interesting because Greg

1462
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:14,190
Bishop is working on on similar stuff

1463
01:09:19,010 --> 01:09:16,410
and we were working on these things and

1464
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:19,020
we had not met at that point and touched

1465
01:09:22,099 --> 01:09:20,370
base and it's interesting that we kind

1466
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:22,109
of just started doing these

1467
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:25,409
the safe docks so maybe maybe the UFOs

1468
01:09:31,879 --> 01:09:27,359
are guiding us down that path of

1469
01:09:34,430 --> 01:09:31,889
phenomena it's very possible yeah yeah

1470
01:09:35,930 --> 01:09:34,440
Greg's a great guy I couldn't think of a

1471
01:09:38,959 --> 01:09:35,940
better person to be connected to in

1472
01:09:42,140 --> 01:09:38,969
terms of its co-creation hypothesis of

1473
01:09:44,689 --> 01:09:42,150
like you said are we manifesting the

1474
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:44,699
phenomena some power are we you know in

1475
01:09:51,979 --> 01:09:48,690
tandem with it yeah on either end of the

1476
01:09:54,410 --> 01:09:51,989
spectrum it's very fascinating exactly

1477
01:09:58,790 --> 01:09:54,420
exactly and if it is an intelligence is

1478
01:10:00,859 --> 01:09:58,800
it is it giving us is it giving us like

1479
01:10:04,459 --> 01:10:00,869
sort of what we need or what we can

1480
01:10:06,140 --> 01:10:04,469
comprehend or cope with you know and

1481
01:10:07,879 --> 01:10:06,150
that is what it's pooling from is it

1482
01:10:11,180 --> 01:10:07,889
pooling from the greater collective

1483
01:10:15,020 --> 01:10:11,190
unconsciousness or from ourselves you

1484
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:15,030
know and creating these experiences and

1485
01:10:20,030 --> 01:10:17,250
that we can comprehend where it's

1486
01:10:22,549 --> 01:10:20,040
something absolutely you know different

1487
01:10:24,410 --> 01:10:22,559
as I kind of I kind of look at UFOs like

1488
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:24,420
dreams too there is usually a lot of

1489
01:10:31,879 --> 01:10:27,210
symbolic content so we're having a dream

1490
01:10:33,530 --> 01:10:31,889
that may be silly right you know but if

1491
01:10:35,689 --> 01:10:33,540
you if you examine what the dream is

1492
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:35,699
then there's a symbolism and then you

1493
01:10:39,049 --> 01:10:37,199
can kind of maybe equate it to what's

1494
01:10:42,109 --> 01:10:39,059
going on in your in your waking world

1495
01:10:43,970 --> 01:10:42,119
and go aha so this is my dream trying to

1496
01:10:46,959 --> 01:10:43,980
tell me something I kind of feel the

1497
01:10:49,790 --> 01:10:46,969
UFOs are are somewhat in line with that

1498
01:10:51,919 --> 01:10:49,800
they're trying to tell us something and

1499
01:10:55,250 --> 01:10:51,929
in a way that we can maybe understand

1500
01:10:57,919 --> 01:10:55,260
Rasim balls plane yeah and it's up to us

1501
01:10:59,990 --> 01:10:57,929
to try to decipher that it's not just

1502
01:11:03,020 --> 01:11:00,000
spoon-fed to us by whatever the

1503
01:11:06,080 --> 01:11:03,030
phenomena is oh yes I'm also working on

1504
01:11:09,260 --> 01:11:06,090
a model and just different pair of

1505
01:11:12,919 --> 01:11:09,270
psychological lenses and modeling to try

1506
01:11:15,109 --> 01:11:12,929
and maybe put some UFO cases through

1507
01:11:17,899 --> 01:11:15,119
those both models to see if again we can

1508
01:11:20,899 --> 01:11:17,909
come up with some better data or maybe

1509
01:11:22,580 --> 01:11:20,909
some better questions so I got something

1510
01:11:25,339 --> 01:11:22,590
more that I'm doing with dr. Willits

1511
01:11:27,530 --> 01:11:25,349
is we're kind of it's just trying to

1512
01:11:30,049 --> 01:11:27,540
look at different ideas and and

1513
01:11:31,540 --> 01:11:30,059
different disciplines and kind of trying

1514
01:11:34,549 --> 01:11:31,550
to come up with some different models

1515
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:34,559
that we can use to examine these cases

1516
01:11:39,650 --> 01:11:35,730
with I I did

1517
01:11:41,510 --> 01:11:39,660
with a ghost case which is the famous

1518
01:11:44,900 --> 01:11:41,520
Morten the chancel hem ghost those just

1519
01:11:47,870 --> 01:11:44,910
the lady in black and I came up with

1520
01:11:50,300 --> 01:11:47,880
some interesting by looking at the

1521
01:11:53,090 --> 01:11:50,310
witness focusing on her and putting her

1522
01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:53,100
in the context of her time period one of

1523
01:11:57,890 --> 01:11:55,710
the last questions I want to sort of get

1524
01:12:00,470 --> 01:11:57,900
out with you Susan is um there's this so

1525
01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:00,480
many years of the term UFO which we all

1526
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:04,260
know stemmed from the government it was

1527
01:12:06,830 --> 01:12:05,130
mm-hmm

1528
01:12:09,020 --> 01:12:06,840
part of Project Blue Book but we have

1529
01:12:12,890 --> 01:12:09,030
this new term sort of insidiously

1530
01:12:15,710 --> 01:12:12,900
creeping in made sort of mainstream by

1531
01:12:18,110 --> 01:12:15,720
hillary clinton at one point and that's

1532
01:12:20,510 --> 01:12:18,120
UAP but it's been a long it's been

1533
01:12:22,970 --> 01:12:20,520
around longer than many people think um

1534
01:12:25,100 --> 01:12:22,980
are you a component of this new

1535
01:12:31,220 --> 01:12:25,110
terminology in terms of what we might be

1536
01:12:33,950 --> 01:12:31,230
dealing with of UAP um again with you at

1537
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:33,960
UFO and UAP to me I'm really a fan of

1538
01:12:39,020 --> 01:12:36,450
neither of these terms they're too

1539
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:39,030
descriptive in my opinion UAP first

1540
01:12:43,790 --> 01:12:41,040
actually came about I believe in the mid

1541
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:43,800
90s again with the government term and

1542
01:12:50,750 --> 01:12:47,130
in a booklet put out by the Ministry of

1543
01:12:53,630 --> 01:12:50,760
Defense in the UK and I think that's the

1544
01:12:56,270 --> 01:12:53,640
first place that I saw it and then later

1545
01:12:58,220 --> 01:12:56,280
I believe it was Ted ruin our cap who

1546
01:13:02,420 --> 01:12:58,230
really said no we're going to push for

1547
01:13:06,290 --> 01:13:02,430
UAP and it is better than UFO but I feel

1548
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:06,300
that I prefer personally to when I think

1549
01:13:11,990 --> 01:13:08,850
about it I think about it as phenomena

1550
01:13:14,990 --> 01:13:12,000
it is the phenomena and I try to remove

1551
01:13:16,790 --> 01:13:15,000
all the descriptors I can because I feel

1552
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:16,800
that as we're layering on these

1553
01:13:22,940 --> 01:13:19,650
descriptors we're getting farther away

1554
01:13:26,060 --> 01:13:22,950
from the core of whatever this may be so

1555
01:13:27,979 --> 01:13:26,070
the only time I really use UFO or UAP is

1556
01:13:30,050 --> 01:13:27,989
when I'm talking with because it's

1557
01:13:31,940 --> 01:13:30,060
they're so popular with witnesses or

1558
01:13:34,900 --> 01:13:31,950
other researchers would like to use them

1559
01:13:39,350 --> 01:13:34,910
I will use that but when in I'm

1560
01:13:42,380 --> 01:13:39,360
contemplating or even writing I use use

1561
01:13:44,330 --> 01:13:42,390
phenomena but that just just the

1562
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:44,340
phenomena because we don't know and

1563
01:13:49,310 --> 01:13:47,760
again they're not always flying I'm just

1564
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:49,320
gonna say not any air

1565
01:13:58,190 --> 01:13:53,010
yeah exactly exactly a new IP might be

1566
01:14:00,140 --> 01:13:58,200
okay for a section or small of the view

1567
01:14:02,030 --> 01:14:00,150
of the UFO phenomena where you might

1568
01:14:04,270 --> 01:14:02,040
have like these lightbulbs

1569
01:14:06,380 --> 01:14:04,280
sometimes they follow aircraft in that

1570
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:06,390
which is something with that NAR cap

1571
01:14:11,630 --> 01:14:10,170
deals with is pilot sightings so that

1572
01:14:13,670 --> 01:14:11,640
that might be something even a little

1573
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:13,680
bit different than you know so that

1574
01:14:17,300 --> 01:14:15,690
might be appropriate for those cases but

1575
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:17,310
when you look at the high strangeness

1576
01:14:24,110 --> 01:14:20,640
and the totality that's the total of

1577
01:14:26,540 --> 01:14:24,120
this what's going on I think just just

1578
01:14:30,590 --> 01:14:26,550
let's call it the phenomena we don't

1579
01:14:36,770 --> 01:14:30,600
know right and just it's there what it

1580
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:36,780
is anyone's guess it seems like

1581
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:38,610
everything we talked about tonight is

1582
01:14:45,530 --> 01:14:42,570
anyone's guess Susan but this was such

1583
01:14:48,410 --> 01:14:45,540
an amazing conversation my mind has been

1584
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:48,420
opened now more than ever and I think

1585
01:14:53,540 --> 01:14:51,570
that's what this is all about where

1586
01:14:57,860 --> 01:14:53,550
where can we find out more about what

1587
01:14:59,510 --> 01:14:57,870
you're doing well I I tend to put up my

1588
01:15:03,170 --> 01:14:59,520
latest projects and things that I'm

1589
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:03,180
working on on my website which is Susan

1590
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:07,650
st. Clair comm and you can find me in

1591
01:15:13,100 --> 01:15:09,570
various social media too which are

1592
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:13,110
linked through that website so yes yes

1593
01:15:17,450 --> 01:15:15,840
Susan st. Clair comm you'll find me I

1594
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:17,460
was just reading one of your articles

1595
01:15:23,090 --> 01:15:20,130
the one you mentioned about the you know

1596
01:15:25,160 --> 01:15:23,100
the woman in the black dress was it yes

1597
01:15:28,220 --> 01:15:25,170
the woman in black which may or may not

1598
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:28,230
yeah may or may not have inspired the

1599
01:15:35,390 --> 01:15:31,770
story as it later became the movie the

1600
01:15:39,740 --> 01:15:35,400
popular movie that is a very well

1601
01:15:42,770 --> 01:15:39,750
documented case that was stunned by the

1602
01:15:45,080 --> 01:15:42,780
Society of psychical research and the

1603
01:15:48,830 --> 01:15:45,090
actual witness at the time was a medical

1604
01:15:51,500 --> 01:15:48,840
student and yes and she tried to make a

1605
01:15:53,270 --> 01:15:51,510
science out of this this woman in black

1606
01:15:57,680 --> 01:15:53,280
apparition that she kept seeing she

1607
01:16:00,890 --> 01:15:57,690
actually tried to catch it she device so

1608
01:16:03,259 --> 01:16:00,900
I it's very very well documented and and

1609
01:16:06,379 --> 01:16:03,269
I try to dissect it a little bit

1610
01:16:10,100 --> 01:16:06,389
and more away from the apparition and

1611
01:16:12,529 --> 01:16:10,110
looking at the witnesses and putting

1612
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:12,539
them in the social context of their time

1613
01:16:18,049 --> 01:16:15,570
period and the interesting stuff comes

1614
01:16:21,290 --> 01:16:18,059
about from that yeah that's fascinating

1615
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:21,300
well yeah I highly suggest all our

1616
01:16:26,629 --> 01:16:23,730
listeners go check out your website for

1617
01:16:29,870 --> 01:16:26,639
various other articles related and not

1618
01:16:32,359 --> 01:16:29,880
related to that Susan thank you so much

1619
01:16:35,359 --> 01:16:32,369
for joining us today I am sure people

1620
01:16:38,540 --> 01:16:35,369
are going to be visiting your site very

1621
01:16:41,419 --> 01:16:38,550
shortly and look forward to the work you

1622
01:16:43,910 --> 01:16:41,429
did in the upcoming book UFOs for

1623
01:16:46,189 --> 01:16:43,920
framing the debate and all of your

1624
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:46,199
projects I think it's sorely needed in a

1625
01:16:53,270 --> 01:16:49,650
field that is so dated and needs to be

1626
01:16:55,819 --> 01:16:53,280
shooken up to the course so again I

1627
01:16:58,220 --> 01:16:55,829
thank you for joining us today and thank

1628
01:16:59,149 --> 01:16:58,230
you for having me and I feel the same

1629
01:17:01,310 --> 01:16:59,159
way about you

1630
01:17:03,939 --> 01:17:01,320
you know and much less let's just keep

1631
01:17:07,250 --> 01:17:03,949
collaborating and sharing and you know

1632
01:17:10,069 --> 01:17:07,260
it's all good share your work children

1633
01:17:12,259 --> 01:17:10,079
share your work share because that's

1634
01:17:15,950 --> 01:17:12,269
that is the cornerstone of science is

1635
01:17:17,509 --> 01:17:15,960
you know you got a share right and be

1636
01:17:19,399 --> 01:17:17,519
old and be open to other people

1637
01:17:21,319 --> 01:17:19,409
questioning and saying you know it's all

1638
01:17:23,779 --> 01:17:21,329
good as long as it's done respectfully I

1639
01:17:26,959 --> 01:17:23,789
thought it would be alright thank you so

1640
01:17:29,209 --> 01:17:26,969
much Susan alright thank you that's it

1641
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:29,219
for this week's episode be sure to check

1642
01:17:33,979 --> 01:17:30,570
out Susan's website

1643
01:17:35,930 --> 01:17:33,989
Susan st.clair calm and be on the

1644
01:17:39,350 --> 01:17:35,940
lookout for both our essays in the

1645
01:17:42,410 --> 01:17:39,360
upcoming anthology ufo's reframing the

1646
01:17:44,779 --> 01:17:42,420
debate edited by Robbie Graham it will

1647
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:44,789
be available through white crow books on

1648
01:17:51,140 --> 01:17:48,480
May 29th visit white crow books calm for

1649
01:17:53,180 --> 01:17:51,150
more info please consider sharing rating

1650
01:17:55,790 --> 01:17:53,190
and reviewing the show on iTunes or

1651
01:17:57,859 --> 01:17:55,800
wherever you may listen from it truly

1652
01:17:58,489 --> 01:17:57,869
helps the show get more exposure and who

1653
01:18:01,040 --> 01:17:58,499
doesn't want that

1654
01:18:03,109 --> 01:18:01,050
right also if you want to reach me with

1655
01:18:06,589 --> 01:18:03,119
stories and guest or topic suggestions

1656
01:18:08,270 --> 01:18:06,599
email spreg at someone in the skies calm

1657
01:18:10,549 --> 01:18:08,280
and if you're looking for some extra

1658
01:18:12,950 --> 01:18:10,559
reading material this week I've got a

1659
01:18:14,620 --> 01:18:12,960
stockpile of interesting articles over

1660
01:18:17,229 --> 01:18:14,630
at somewhere in the skies

1661
01:18:18,790 --> 01:18:17,239
just click on the article tab and while

1662
01:18:21,370 --> 01:18:18,800
you're at it check out the book on

1663
01:18:23,860 --> 01:18:21,380
Amazon and paperback and ebook I got to

1664
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:23,870
pay them podcast bills guys alright I'll

1665
01:18:28,300 --> 01:18:25,730
be back next Monday with an all-new

1666
01:18:30,970 --> 01:18:28,310
episode and a very special and

1667
01:18:33,250 --> 01:18:30,980
controversial guest it'll be a fun one

1668
01:18:35,050 --> 01:18:33,260
so definitely tune in thank you so much

1669
01:18:37,419 --> 01:18:35,060
for joining me and remember keep your

1670
01:19:01,330 --> 01:18:37,429
feet on the ground but never stop

1671
01:19:04,450 --> 01:19:01,340
searching somewhere in the skies this